Hi, welcome back to, because I want to know. Today I'm talking to Adriana, say hi, hello. And today we have Mikaela in here too. Hello. So, mikaela, do you want to you introduce me to Adriana? So you want to talk about that, just a little bit of how you are, where you heard her and all that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I was visiting a church for young adults and I heard her speaking and sharing her story and everything and I just thought it was really powerful and really interesting. And I was talking to my friend after that. I went with and I was like this would be so cool to have her on my dad's podcast, like she has such a great story, and but I was like so nervous to ask. And then my friend was like well, you never know unless you try. And then I just kept going on about how nervous I was and then he walked away for me so I had to go ask. And then I went over and asked and I'm yeah, I'm really glad I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool. So how did that experience go for you?
Speaker 4:I mean I it was great I was. I was surprised that someone would even want to hear my story again and that impacted so much. I mean, that's kind of what I wanted it to happen. Sure. And for it to help at least one person. You know and and you never know how the Lord works you know, so it's it's crazy that she did that and I'm thankful, I'm very thankful and I'm excited.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, I'm finally. I'm glad you're finally here, because I think that was like August or something. Yeah, it was a while ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just kind of had to work out our schedules and all of that. So and your sister, anna right, is here too as a support animal. Is that what we established? I wish we had her on mic, but if we need to, we can pull that over or something. But or we might do like you suggested and do a part two with her and a part three with your mom. So we'll see how everything goes. But so so, um, michaela told me nothing about your story. I got a little tiny bit, and so why don't we just get into it? So where did? Where are your parents from?
Speaker 4:So my mom is from Mualahara, her family is from there, but she was born in LA, okay, and then my daddy. He was born in Yucatan, where you know where the beautiful beaches are, in Cancun. That's where my puppy is. My dad called my puppy Sorry, um, and so we mostly go to his side of the area because I think it's our favorite place, I guess. Yeah, that's where they're from.
Speaker 1:Cool. And then, where did you grow up? Did you grow up in what area? Did you grow up down in California?
Speaker 4:No, no Well, no Um I. I guess my parents ended up in Portland Oregon. I don't know how they came about that Um, but we grew up around the Portland Oregon area. Um, portland like Gresham area.
Speaker 1:Okay, so when did they move up here then from where? Where did they meet?
Speaker 4:Okay, uh well, my mama. From her stories, um, she says she met my pops in um a church and she fell in love right away with him because he was playing the guitar. Um, that's a whole other story of how she came to meet him and and why. It's an amazing story, we got to hear it. But, um, she met him in the church and, um, she fell in love with him, and I remember her telling us that she prayed that um to God, saying that if you let me marry him, I'll follow you the rest of my life. And so she's, to this day, she hasn't broken that promise. Um, which is amazing. And they've been married now for how many years? Um, I think what? 30 plus years. Um, so, when they have five kids, I'm the oldest, okay, um, and then Anna here, my support animal, here is the second oldest, and then it's two boys, and then our youngest, which is our youngest sister.
Speaker 1:Okay, so was it. It was down there that they met and then moved up here.
Speaker 4:I think it was here in Portland, oregon, that they met. Yeah, Um not here, excuse me, but over there in Portland, Oregon, that they met in a church. Okay, they met, and then, um, they ended up eloping, basically, and running away together. Um, part of the circumstances of, again, she would have to tell you, and it's an amazing story too. Um, and then after that, she got pregnant with me. I think she was around about 15, 16 years old when she got pregnant with me.
Speaker 1:And then, um, that's very yeah, so how old were they then, when they?
Speaker 4:They're pretty young. Um, my dad's five years older than my mama, so I think she was around 15 when they met. Okay. And so my dad. That would what be 20. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how did that? How did that look then? So they did they start going out, cause obviously she's 15 and he's 20.
Speaker 4:So well um at that.
Speaker 1:I mean five years when you're 20 and 25 isn't a big deal, but yeah.
Speaker 4:You know, I, I don't know, I don't know how that that went back. Then she would only have to tell you I honestly don't really know. Um, I just know that that's her from what she's told us story you know um, she would have to probably.
Speaker 1:So eventually they got married. And where did they run off to?
Speaker 4:Um, I, um, I only know bits and pieces from what she has told me, but, um, that I, I, and forgive me, mom, if you're, since you're listening now you know, um, I don't really remember what was the next transition into that, but once they married, I know that eventually they ended up going to job corpse, both of them, um, and in job corpse you can't be together, um, like they would separate the men and women, and so they were both going to school there. Okay.
Speaker 4:And so the job corpse there from what she has told us again, um, found out she was pregnant and they told her she couldn't stay there because it was a bad example for the other girls there. And so, since, um, she couldn't stay there, they had to find someone else to basically host her or or like house her, and so there was a cook there. His name was Roy Trowbridge and, um again, god works in mysterious ways.
Speaker 4:I always say that but he actually took her in with his wife and they became our adoptive grandparents until to this day, like to the present day they are still.
Speaker 1:And where was this? Was this?
Speaker 4:this was back in Astoria. Right. Isn't that where the job corpses on? I believe I think so, astoria. Okay, if I'm wrong, forgive me. Um but yeah, so. So they took her in. Um, once she had me, my grandmother would watch me, and my grandpa as well. He would take me into this job corpse and show me off, while my mother and father would go to school. But um yeah, so they. They continued to live with them and they became our adoptive, their adoptive parents, basically.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's move forward a little bit, so into kind of what this is about. So, um, where do you want to lead us into and how many years are you going to advance us into this story?
Speaker 4:Well, I would say maybe a couple of years um up, when I was about three, four years old.
Speaker 1:Let me go back just a little bit. What when they were going to church? What kind of church was that? Was that just a Christian church or like this is like a regular old church?
Speaker 4:Yeah, when they met, yeah, it was a Christian church. My mother wasn't going to church and she had just come with her parents from a place called Arizona because my parents, uh, my mom, um and her parents would travel a lot. Um, they basically lived in their van. Um, they, it was just her, her parents and like what, 11 other siblings. Wow. All in the car. Okay. They would live in this car and travel because they would work in the fields.
Speaker 4:Okay, the kids wouldn't even go to school, um, they would just be working, since they could walk. So my grandfather would have them traveling, basically across country, you could say um, working in the fields wherever there was work. And they were coming from Arizona Again, that story's powerful, um. And coming from there, they stopped to Portland, oregon, to visit a sister because there was going to be work there. I believe that was the season. And that night, um, my auntie her name is Estella she was going to go to church and she asked my mom to join her.
Speaker 1:Okay. Um, and that's how she, and so that's how she got it got plugged into that. Okay. So now we can I just kind of wanted to just establish that so now we can kind of move forward to what you were, where you were leading.
Speaker 4:Okay, yeah, um. So eventually, like, um, some things happened, I don't know. Eventually they moved out, um, and then my parents, I guess, were having difficulties in their marriage and so they separated for a while. Um, my mom got a job and and um a head start, I believe she said. And then my dad I don't know where he went, but one day she said that my dad came back and to like win her back, basically, um, and asked her to be together again, and and he came with these pastors and um, and he was trying to convince her to move into this place called a ministry, where they could live and start um, basically living in as a family and becoming better as a family, um, so they could just, I guess, come back together. I don't know.
Speaker 4:Um, and so I apologize, that's fine. Um, so he came with these pastors and he, he tried to convince her. Um, he, even my mom wasn't convinced at first. And then he's like come on, you have to come see what I'm talking about, and it's amazing how they work together and and just the community and, and you know, it seems like a dream, you know, come true.
Speaker 1:Has he shared with you or do you know how he got involved with these pastors? Like he was away and I don't know.
Speaker 4:I actually we have a ring really asked him that we don't. I haven't asked him that, okay, no, um, so I don't know how he came to meet them, but um, um, once he brought her to this ministry place, um, she came and saw um how they lived Basically, they lived in this home altogether and the woman would, you know, take turns to cook clean, take care of their kids, altogether as a community. Um, the men would be the one that would, of course, go out to work Um, they would have Bible studies, they would have um prayer times, um, the kids were homeschooled. So it was like the small community, like a dream community, you know, and my mom at first is, like you know, not really convinced, but I guess it convinced her um with how they were living and how the women were, were acting around her or what she saw, I guess. So that's how they came to know this place.
Speaker 4:Um, I was only about. I don't remember much about moving into this place, but um, I was only about what, three, four years old um, when this happened I don't really remember much of moving in.
Speaker 1:Do you remember a lot of like how big was it in terms of people at this point? Were there a lot of kids, like a lot of couples, slash people?
Speaker 4:From the little bit that I remember. Um, yes, there was a lot of kids. Um, from. What I start to remember is when I'm about seven, eight years old.
Speaker 1:Okay, and where was this commune?
Speaker 4:Well, believe it or not, it was um in Portland Oregon.
Speaker 1:So it was in this city.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, and I know the street and everything. Um I I know the whole area. It's actually on Gleason Street. Okay. Um, and it was right behind the Providence hospital Um now is this just in just a one big house.
Speaker 1:Well um not just one.
Speaker 4:There was a, there was more than one, there was like three or four, I believe.
Speaker 1:So they're like three or four homes that they bought in the city, on the city street, in this neighborhood.
Speaker 4:Yes, in the neighborhood that they bought Um again, I don't know much detail about it. My mom knows more Um because I again I think I I blocked a lot out Um and probably because I wasn't old enough to understand much of the logistics, so I didn't really know much about how they did things for you.
Speaker 1:It's you know what four, three or four, and you said you started kind of remembering stuff at seven or eight. So you're just being a kid with other kids, I assume. Yes, you know. So you're like okay, this is what we're doing. Cause that's I mean, you're a kid.
Speaker 4:So you're just yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm assuming you're just playing with other kids and for you guys it's just being kids, and then okay yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was normal. Um yeah, for me it was. It was being a kid until, like, certain things started happening.
Speaker 1:Um, that was when I started to feel things were not right, you know was this when you were like seven or eight, or maybe a little bit older, because it would make me afraid. Okay.
Speaker 4:And because of the threats that I would receive. Okay. Um and the pain. So, yeah, yeah. So to go into that, you know, um, we can start by. I guess I was my, about seven, eight years old and has um are you the second?
Speaker 1:So when is Anna them born? How old were you when Anna was born?
Speaker 4:I was only one.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were one, so she came quick so yeah. Okay. So so you're growing up together. I mean, you're seeing this stuff too. You're only a year younger than she is, so yeah, so okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah, out of all of the kiddos I believe, um I we always say we're the ones that are the most messed up from this place Right. Probably because we lived most of it together and we we grew up in it more for so many years, so it changed us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and do you have any idea how long this thing had been going on? As adults, do you have any idea of no, I don't.
Speaker 4:I know what happens after I know what happens to the? Leader Like. I mean that because as we grew older, we understood more.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, you're just more aware.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so you're seven or eight, you're being kids, so it's very strict.
Speaker 4:We had to wear, you know, clothing that was under the feet, like covering basically everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what? So? What year is this? Because it can't? I mean, you guys, you two are young.
Speaker 4:No, when we move in, maybe my mom would know it the specific dates again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fine, you don't? I mean I don't, you don't have to be like, have the year.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maybe around 94, 95. Okay, yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you moved in so yeah, okay. So we're getting into the 2000s-ish, late 90s, when man okay, yes, this is going on, so, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so again, it was very strict. We had certain rules of how to dress. It was very conservative, basically. Yeah. No earrings, no makeup, no nothing. Our hair had to be. You know well it was long. Mom would cut it, though sometimes but that was after right. I don't remember much, but yeah, it was long we had to be covered and then also like we would have Bible studies and um the people that ran this.
Speaker 1:Were they Caucasian? Were they like? What nationality were they?
Speaker 4:So the leader was Peruvian Okay, I came to find out after and a lot of them were Hispanic, okay, but also we had a lot of Caucasians that would sell everything they had and owned outside of this cult. You could say, and bring it all to this man, and that's how they, and they had it, like houses and they had cars, and they would sell everything for the religion. You could say, yeah, and that's what I would call it now because it was a religion. Yeah, it wasn't really a true relationship with God. They would just use.
Speaker 4:God to manipulate people. Sure. So it was a mixture of people. Okay. And this Peruvian man. His name was Manuel Tabata. He was married to an American lady. He had a couple of kids that we grew up with, timothy Pauley I still remember them. The leaders were like the core leaders were mixture, were American and Mexican, hispanics? Yeah, so it was a mixture. Okay. And they had about, they bought one, two like, about four houses, like I said.
Speaker 1:And around this time, do you remember how many people this was? So what were these? I'm getting into the weeds a little bit, but were these like the big big houses that had lots of like old homes, like old established homes, or are they a little bit you know what I'm saying like like real old Portland homes? Were they a little bit smaller?
Speaker 4:They were real old Portland homes. Yeah, the ones that are close to Laurel Hearst. I don't know if you've seen those.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love Laurel Hearst. It's close to there, yeah, okay.
Speaker 4:So it's similar to those homes there, okay, and they had two stories each of them. Okay, had a downstairs and upstairs, like the basement one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so these are like old homes.
Speaker 4:Like old homes. Yes, yeah, 30s, 40s maybe even older than that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm just trying to get an idea of four homes, quite a few people. How many people do you just an estimate, you know like?
Speaker 4:I don't know exactly the number, but I can give you an idea of what it looked like in the house. They would use every single room available, even the living room, I remember, and they would even like the, even the dining room area. They would even chop that up and make it into a room like a bedroom.
Speaker 4:Yes, Exactly, and so the one where we were at at first, because we were moved from different homes as well, but the one that we were at first, I believe. What was it called the peach house? Yeah, it was called the peach house. They even had names. But the peach house it had about seven plus rooms and the only thing they did not that the peach house, the only thing they did not convert into a room, was the kitchen and the that kitchen area, I remember. But everything else was turned. Even the basement area was turned into rooms. There was like two rooms down there right In a bathroom or three, yeah, yeah, in a bathroom.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're right, three rooms in a bathroom.
Speaker 1:Anna's got it locked in her head. Yeah, I can see her like visualizing it. Yeah, when you're talking.
Speaker 4:I think that you tend to like skip a lot, and me I'm terrible. Oh, it's fine, you're fine, that's my bra.
Speaker 1:I can just like you're like staring off and you're like see, you see every single room and how it's like made out in the basement yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, that was in the peach house. In the other house, oh, who had more? Anyway. And that house actually had a basement and upstairs. Remember that yeah.
Speaker 1:And we're into the sorry.
Speaker 4:No, you're fine, you're good.
Speaker 1:You're fine. So you're like in the late nineties? Yes, okay, and how many people you think?
Speaker 4:So, like I was saying, in each room with a family. Okay so let's say, in this household there's seven rooms and in each room there's a family. Wow. And our room was literally the size of here, maybe a little bit, a little bit smaller, a little bit smaller, and so what would you say, this room size?
Speaker 1:is, I think it's like 10 by 12 or something like that To give you an idea. Yeah, yeah, and it's the four of you. Your parents don't have any other kids at this point, not yet, not yet.
Speaker 4:So it's four of you in a small room like this yes, but eventually, later on, it's seven of us. Right. Still in the same room.
Speaker 1:Yes, Okay, and then the rest of the house is there, like I'm. You know there's a kitchen and all of that. Is that like community area, or are you just kind of staying in your room?
Speaker 4:Yes, it's staying in your room, you don't go out. I remember our mother would take care of us a lot when she was home and we were homeschooled. We would even do homeschooling in our room. We wouldn't leave our room. So when we would go out, like it was a big thing. We never were able to go out to eat like out like yeah, sure Ever.
Speaker 1:But there was there any community spaces in any of these homes?
Speaker 4:No, it was like a regular backyard. Yeah, no community, like we would be able to play in the street sometimes. Okay. But that's it. It was not like what you think of a typical cult compound.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It was just that's what's so interesting is that they established it in town.
Speaker 4:It's crazy. That's, that is very they would control it a lot with fear and and power and like manipulation, just all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so interesting. Were there services? Were there like in one of the homes, or was there a church offsite?
Speaker 4:Nope, it was all Everybody would gather in one home when the pastor would probably live. Well, he wasn't even a pastor. The leader would live.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:And we would all come to that one house to come have Bible studies. That's what they would call it. Everybody all in that little space, and usually it was in the kitchen area.
Speaker 1:And how often did those happen?
Speaker 4:Every day. Every day, like multiple times a day, or was it once and it was just for hours, or yes, once for hours, mostly in the night, it was usually around 7pm, right and the more, and on the weekends, usually on Saturdays. I think it was twice, one in the morning and one at night, and then the morning was early, early prayer and then so how did those look out of the?
Speaker 1:how did I Bible study look?
Speaker 4:from what I remember as a child draining like super draining.
Speaker 1:Was it the leader speaking A lot and kind of pontificating, and was he using a Bible? Yes, okay, so he was using the Bible and manipulating the Bible, and then just kind of ramp, kind of what you typically would think of a like a leader that would cult leader that would do that.
Speaker 4:Just go on and on and on for hours. Kids had to sit, still not move. We would get pinched all the time, all the time, because of us so tired to want to sleep, and and we had that when we had to pray, like I loved it because we could just get on our knees and knock out. And but the music part was another thing that I loved so much. We can get on to that later, but that the like music the singing worship, and at our early age I loved that.
Speaker 4:I remember, around nine years old, I was really into it. Yeah, really really into it.
Speaker 1:So how are your parents doing with all of this? From what you can remember, so your, your dad, they split up for a bit. He comes back. He has two guys with him, which I'm fascinated to know. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to talk to your mom. You don't remember like it that piece. I really want to know you know how he got sucked? Into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how he and and I wonder if it had to do with you know, because he's wandering about with his family and working and yeah, I'm just kind of creating a story in my head, so I'll just we'll we can talk again. Yeah, because I'm really curious about that piece. So your mom is hesitant. You remember that she comes. Is there any point where she's in the beginning she get kind of gets into it? Or was she always kind of in the know on guard?
Speaker 4:I think that she was on guard and that was something that she she was always aware of that.
Speaker 1:So she was in, but there was always seemed to be an awareness of what was happening.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, and it had a lot to do with how she was raised and what she had lived through while being raised.
Speaker 1:Oh God, yeah, I'm gonna yeah, because it's all going to connect somehow, and so I'm definitely going to have to talk to her.
Speaker 4:Yes, maybe we should have started with mom huh.
Speaker 1:No, it's okay. It's okay, we're gonna. We'll do this like Star Wars. Yes, we're gonna start in the middle, and then we'll go back and have a prequel. There you go. There you go, I love it. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But yes, so she's always been been like cautious about everything. So since the beginning she, she didn't really, wasn't really convinced, I'm pretty sure. But and I'm just speculating here- yeah. I'm thinking that maybe she in her as a mom now and as a wife, I'm speculating that she just wanted it to work and she wanted it and she loved my dad. So much, she just you know wanted to make it. You know, work out for us.
Speaker 1:Was there? Do you think, because of that kind of that vagabond life that you were living, going from place to place and working? Do you think there was maybe that she wanted it to work because there was some settledness, there was some, some stability, even though it sounds like it was probably some chaos. Yeah, but there was some stability. We have a place. We're going to be here together.
Speaker 1:And that kind of, yeah, together. My husband's back and I love him, but there's also some okay we're going to be still for a bit, and so she kind of went with it and she's got two daughters on top of that. So what do I do if I leave this with two toddlers? Yeah, early on, early on, yeah it was toddler.
Speaker 4:We were toddlers because she worked at the head start. I remember her telling us, though, that she was pretty like doing. Well, she was okay was doing pretty well and happy at her job and she had to leave all that and she sacrificed all of that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so she's doing all right. Yeah, but she still wants her husband back. Yeah, probably, yeah, okay would have to ask her.
Speaker 4:Yeah, her thoughts and everything. But then I do remember her saying as well that there's things that didn't sit well with her because they threw pictures away. They threw so much away.
Speaker 1:So they're just getting. So this is your life. Now your history is gone. It's gone. So they're cutting up pictures, and no, they cut basically from the outside world.
Speaker 4:Okay, got it, got it. So they're isolating.
Speaker 1:Everything was evil, so and I keep going back to this and we may continue. It's so crazy that this is in the middle of town, because something like this is out, you know, on a farm or out on some land on 10 acres. It's crazy that they've isolated these people, and right in the middle of.
Speaker 4:Portland. I know and I'm telling you they used fear because a lot of the congregation was immigrants and oh, okay, so did they threaten? Oh, yes, so they use that. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So a lot the majority of the people were immigrants, undocumented, most of them yeah, so they would just use that as a threat. Now, what about the leader? Was he an immigrant? Obviously was. He was Peruvian. But do you know?
Speaker 4:if he was married to an American citizen? Yeah, I believe that I don't know what or how that happened, or but yeah, whatever that meant for him.
Speaker 1:Yeah it didn't matter, he still used it as a fear tactic for yeah.
Speaker 4:And I was just going to get to that my mother. They would use tactics around. She was an American citizen born. Okay, okay. And so she. They would use the fear tactics of taking us away and the fear of DHS taking us away, and if you get them involved, they'll take your kids away. You'll never see them again. And like fear into her. She was so young as well, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because this is like so she was 15. So how old is she? Like early 20s.
Speaker 4:Early 20s yeah.
Speaker 1:Like mid 20s maybe, so she's really young, so she has yeah.
Speaker 4:She's been living with her parents, closed off, doesn't know how the world works. Maybe she's been working all her life. She's never gone to school. She doesn't know how the outside world works, even though she did start working.
Speaker 1:Sure, she's still young, exactly yeah.
Speaker 4:And I didn't understand none of that.
Speaker 1:Well, sure, yeah, because you're a kid, I mean you're not supposed to. Yeah, you wouldn't understand that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and knowing my mother's story now, it breaks my heart, breaks my heart to know that we even made her suffer. She went, she went through so much. Yeah. Yeah so.
Speaker 2:You're talking about you guys and kids and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's just yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's just kind of your kids yes, it's. I think that's just kind of natural and what happens, you know? I mean I mean it sounds like you've come, you've obviously grown, you have kids of your own, you kind of understand everything. I mean that's just kind of part of just moving forward. You're a kid, I mean you just you don't know. You know what you know and that's it. I mean now that you have kids and you're older, you understand probably the state of mind that she was in.
Speaker 1:I mean it is what it is. I mean, you know okay, so back we go back.
Speaker 4:That's okay.
Speaker 1:So into the in the house and how kind of what all that looked like still so.
Speaker 4:So usually the mothers would. Again, they would have their their turn to cook and clean. And my mom, I remember she she was super smart lady, always has been, and she was one of the main teachers that would teach homeschooling. I hated it. I was the worst student ever. Anna was my sister here. She was always she's always been bright, so she would get it like that. But me, I hated school and I remember us having to wake up early, having to do homework, and then the other part of it was writing verses. Writing 100 verses or more every day, always in the Bible, every day, always praying every day. Now I love it, but back then I hated it. It was just a daily thing and it was like punishment. Basically, we'd have to memorize verses and my mom tried to make it fun. She, she made this huge heart and made into like this gridline type heart and we'd get stickers for every verse we would. We would memorize and I remember being in a competition with her, so she so the the leaders are having you do this.
Speaker 1:This is part of what you have to do. Your mom may be maybe believe in this practice, but probably not to the extent that the leaders are having you do it. So she's trying to make it fun and enjoyable and trying to lighten it a little bit. Yes, okay.
Speaker 4:Yes, exactly, and she so. Then in 1990, what it was at seven was one short six. Well before that, my mama had a miscarriage. She lost a sibling of ours on a bike. I don't know how many months she was, but I remember. I have a flashback of her crying on the bed when she lost baby, and then I remember us praying with her on the bed for her to have another baby, and my dad really wanted a boy. I remember he's like pray for a boy. So in 1996, was it 1996?
Speaker 4:Yeah, my brother was born, john he was next and they she went to the hospital and had him and then came back. So he was, he was born in 96. And then four years later was it, he said, was born, and then, a year after, esther was born like not even like nine months later. They're all a year apart as well.
Speaker 1:And is your dad working? Is he working outside of?
Speaker 4:Yes, so my dad used to do landscaping professionally and he would go out and work and all the money was given to the Sure, of course, of course. And that's another reason why we didn't have much TVs were evil. We never saw TV until later on. I don't know when we got one, but I remember it was this. It was a little box one. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But everything was evil. No, nothing Secular music was of the devil. Of course you know we did Disney like everything. Everything was evil. We did not. Everything you know about and kids dream about, we didn't know about at all. We grew up like that, with closed off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's no awareness because everything is happening in that place, so you might get to go out on the street and play a little bit, or in backyards.
Speaker 4:It sounds like so interesting and once in a while we'd go to a store that was on the corner street it was called Ron's, and my daddy would always take us there to buy a little piece of candy, mexican candy, or bring us into Mexican candy, or little chips. That was our highlight of the day. Hot Cheetos, once a week maybe, and to this day we love hot cheetos still in Mexican candy.
Speaker 4:It's our favorite thing ever. Our kids love hot cheetos and that was, I think, something that we grew up with so right, like our only way out of going out, and so when they would take us, I mean it was the best thing ever. I loved it so much.
Speaker 1:When you would go to a store just anywhere, anywhere, yeah.
Speaker 4:Or on our birthdays they'd take us to Pizza Hut. I still, to this day, really love Pizza Hut. I like Pizza. Hut yeah.
Speaker 1:Pizza Hut. Pizza is good. It's better when they had a week and instead it's better when they had a week.
Speaker 4:And that was the only time we went out to restaurants. For birthdays and yeah, for specific birthdays, and sometimes even then our grandma who adopted my mom, basically Peggy and Roy Trowbridge she would make cakes back then and she would bring us special cakes on our birthday. They would come visit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so grandparents, you're kind of adopted grandparents so they're coming to visit you in the, on this commune or compound of homes, whatever. So was there any talk again now that you're adults? Was there any? Do you remember, of your mom talked about any awareness for your, for your grandparents and them seeing what was happening?
Speaker 4:Well, we asked her that and we said why didn't you try and reach out? Why didn't you try and ask for help? Why didn't you run away Like? And? So we asked her that when we grew up and she told us you know, I didn't say anything to anybody because of the fear of you guys being taken away. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And I did try and run away, but every time she would run away. And I remember the one time that I can remember her running away, she ran away, she couldn't take it anymore and they no joke would send a van full of men to go after her and they brought her back and I don't know where they found her, but they brought her back with my dad, of course.
Speaker 1:Right and Cause he's gonna lure her back or, like, help her to come back. Yeah, yeah, because it's her husband.
Speaker 4:Yes, so they would bring her back, and I remember to this day, they sat her down on that chair and all the men around her, and we're just sitting on the bunk bed and yelling at her and criticizing her, and you know, and you know what's wrong and what's right, and in Spanish, delante de Dios, you know, in the eyes of God, and this is so bad and rebellious, and you know what rebelliousness is. You know they would just reprimand her, basically, and so she tried to run away, and but could it?
Speaker 1:So probably in protection of you guys, she'd just kind of comply, yeah, and just do what she needed to do. So, moving forward a little bit, you start having more siblings, you're there for, you know, several years into the late 90s and stuff. So is all of that? Is it just? All of this is just happening? It's kind of all the same, or is there? You know what I'm saying like day to day, year to year?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and they would have like yeah.
Speaker 1:And are more people.
Speaker 4:Oh yes, More coming, oh yes.
Speaker 1:Did it always stay just the four houses?
Speaker 4:No, it started with one then two Right. And then three. Okay, so how?
Speaker 1:many were there. When you guys got there Was it a little bit smaller.
Speaker 4:Yeah, just the one that I know of, I think. So, yeah, okay, one home. So, as the years went.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the as the years go by and your guys are growing up, they're just buying homes. They're buying the homes, yes, because they have all these people, and the guys are working and the women are staying home with the kids and teaching the kids and it's growing Are are. Do you know like are any? Is anybody leaving or able to get out?
Speaker 4:If they do, we don't know about it. Okay. And if they do they if? I never heard about it. I don't know if my mama did, maybe she did, and but they were considered rebellious and and they're now.
Speaker 1:Like kind of excommunicated yeah.
Speaker 4:And then they. I remember one time they would install, instill I don't know if that's the right word instill fear into everyone as well. I remember being afraid as well. They would do these drills. Remember where they would say that DHS was coming or the ice people.
Speaker 4:The La Migra basically was coming ice people were coming and they would put us all in vans, all the women and children in vans, and we would go park at a nearby park and sit there and wait for hours and I'm not quitting hours of the night and we were just so afraid. I just remember that.
Speaker 1:So this was at night.
Speaker 4:Yeah, in the middle of the night, I guess that kind of makes sense.
Speaker 1:So was ice coming you guys, just don't know, no, we don't know.
Speaker 4:It could have been a thing I might know.
Speaker 1:It could have been a real thing, or it could have been just another scare protected but it's like in the middle of the night. Yeah, quiet. Yes, that's another thing oh police would drive by and all of you guys would be very quiet. I have to stay quiet.
Speaker 4:Yes, or just, and they would turn off all the lights and just sit there. Yeah. A lot of fear again, and that's children again. We didn't know what was going on. Yeah, during this as well, like around.
Speaker 1:So go ahead. I have a question.
Speaker 4:It's okay Around the six to eight years old era, you could say, because they would bring so many new people. A lot of them were men. These men were not criminal background checked. They were talked about or you didn't know if they were Christian or not.
Speaker 1:Like they were so just single men Most of them a lot of them.
Speaker 4:Okay yeah, and if they would come they would start by themselves and then they would bring their families, or some of them would marry the young women there, or they would be assigned You're supposed to marry her, arranged basically.
Speaker 1:You marry him. So there were some men that would come, just come around or join, but they had families. Some of them had families, and then they would bring their families. They can kind of like check out the whole thing and then, probably God, it's so interesting. That's the whole culture. It's crazy. Of cult, you know, because it's, the stories are kind of all the same. You know what I'm saying. It's like yeah, I think a conversation with your mom is like necessary at this point yeah, because I'm just always wondered.
Speaker 1:You know, it's kind of all the same template. You know what I'm saying. Like what is it that is so convincing that you're like I'm a Christian, you know where Christians go to church and stuff. And there's a level to any religion. You know, I've told friends like we believe in this Christ that died on the cross, rose again. I mean, if you listen to that, it sounds crazy. You know, we understand that. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Like I can, I can understand that, like I believe it, but I also understand that it to somebody that doesn't believe, like what are you talking about? Like the whole, you know what I'm saying so, but then you add this, this cult culture. So there's a piece that I understand. How you can believe in something that seems or can sound farfetched, but it like takes it to a whole other level to. You know, move into a home, bring in your family, like that's like a whole other level, you know what I'm saying. Like where you're just becoming a community in houses and you're sticking your family in a room. You're thinking that there's some belief there. But it probably plays a lot into where you're at in your life, especially immigrants. You know you want to be a part of something or you want to be with other people.
Speaker 4:You don't know how the world really works, yeah right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you get somebody that knows enough that can manipulate people with the fear part of it, like now you're, now you're in, because now we're going to scare the crap out of you and you're not going anywhere because now you're going to threaten your life with ice in the middle of the night or all these scare tactics. So it's the, it's the, the lower part that I'm so fascinated by, because the fear always seems to be the next part. You know what I'm saying. Like it's the what is the lore, and it's that psychology is fascinating to me.
Speaker 4:It wasn't like rose, like color de rosas as we call it in Spanish, color roses. You know, the living there wasn't like beautiful and I mean it was nothing like that Like. In the home that we lived in there was one shower and to take a shower we'd have to put our towels down so that we knew who was next. Like to assign who was next, basically in line, or or it was your turn next.
Speaker 1:So it's not an ideal lifestyle at all.
Speaker 4:No, a lot of the men and a lot of the yeah, a lot of men would get fungus on their feet because of the tons of people that showered in that place and and it was terrible. It was disgusting and terrible. I mean, yes, it was a and I remember I'm sorry, I'm trying to think here it was kind of clean. I'm I'm trying to say, yeah, it was kind of clean. Our room was always clean.
Speaker 6:My mama always was very good at that, but I remember in the kitchen to this day.
Speaker 4:I hate ants in my kitchen because there was tons of ants and flies everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ants are. We had an ant problem at our old house.
Speaker 4:And rats, yeah.
Speaker 1:Ants were the only issue and it to this day. It my, our daughters and Shelly's like. I hate them, it's yeah, yeah, and I grew up in Omaha and we had roaches. Oh my gosh. Like I just growing up kind of side trailing here, but growing up I just swore, well, when I have a family, this is not going to be a thing. I can't do that because I grew up with mice in the walls, you know, and that, that scratching at night. Did you guys experience some of that, like that?
Speaker 4:Sometimes, yeah, I remember that Running, running across, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's, it's um. Hearing them in a wall is so disturbing Cause it's like you can't do anything about it and it's, and then just the roaches and I, my mama, grew up with roaches.
Speaker 4:She hates them to this day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very. It's like PTSD kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:It's awful, definitely.
Speaker 1:So, so, um. So, to get back to your story, so your family is growing, that room is getting smaller. Oh yeah. Because of the growing family.
Speaker 4:We started on the bunk bed and then we ended up. Oh yeah, we started one bed, yeah, and then a bunk bed where we were able to sleep in and then we ended up on the floor and everybody on the floor, I mean, we knew, I, I, I know. Now you know, that's how we grew up. It's normal to me, you know. I, I was. I liked it. It was fine.
Speaker 4:But I remember living in a small, small room, anyway, during this time, as it was growing um, in the middle of all that, after all these houses were bought and all these people came and um, in the middle of everything, this cult leader, manuel, decided out of the blue I believe my mama can confirm this too, because she probably knows better details but he wanted to move his favorite people Um, well, all of us. He said everybody, but now we know it's his favorite people, excuse me Um, all of us to Hawaii, to a new compound where it would be better and everybody would be able to be together. And there's land everywhere and natural right, right yeah.
Speaker 1:And um so when was this? What year was this, Do you think? Yeah, yeah. Like was this in? Is this still like late nineties or into the 2000s?
Speaker 4:I was around 10 or 11. Okay. Right or more? No, because we moved to the greenhouse when I was seven and they had already left. Okay, anna says that we moved to the greenhouse when we were seven. Again, my mom can confirm all this details. I'm terrible with the timelines but anyway. So the the gist of it is that he moved with these people. He took certain like the main leaders and left one here to take care of the rest and he said bring us with him later Later.
Speaker 1:So they're probably so. They were like 30 of those people, so a couple of families or leaders, the leaders in their family, right yes. So they buy something, or over there. They leave one of the leaders here, so it's still a thing happening.
Speaker 4:So you guys are so then, we moved from that peach house right To the greenhouse. So the peach house, the greenhouse, the King's house and then the brown house.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so you guys move cause so? Did they get rid of any of those houses, or did they yeah? Sold. They sold two of them. Okay, so as they moved as they moved they well, that's probably what funded their their whole trip their trip over there. Okay, so now we're down to two here, and probably how many people, do you think, left?
Speaker 4:a lot.
Speaker 1:Really in those two houses.
Speaker 4:Oh, yeah, like 30, 30 to 50 people left, uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Okay, and how big are we talking about at this point? How many people were left? So the greenhouse?
Speaker 4:had one two three, four, six, seven, eight, nine. It started with three rooms and then, because there was so many people, they had to divide a like a dining room A living room yeah. So then that made five, then downstairs, it was just a basement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can pull it over, or Macky can give her your mic, you're fine.
Speaker 4:Can you hear me?
Speaker 1:I think we're probably could hear you a little bit with the mics, but this will obviously help yeah.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, the greenhouse started with three rooms and then they divided a living and dining room area into two rooms, so that made five. And then the basement it was just a big basement. They made into three other rooms and one back, two bathrooms, two bathrooms downstairs, one full and a half, a half full and a half downstairs. So that's what? Three, that's eight rooms in the greenhouse now. And then in the brown house it also started with just two rooms. They divided that into one, two, three, three rooms upstairs. They had three rooms in the attic area and then three rooms downstairs. So they made rooms where there wasn't any rooms, like in the beginning, and in the brown house is where we would all congregate for our services after that In this big big room that they left open.
Speaker 1:So do they continue to grow after those people leave?
Speaker 4:I don't know. I honestly don't remember. I always saw new people, but my mother would try and shield us Kinda. And then out of this, whole band grew out of it which came out to be called Vivo San Cristo. Our dad was part of it and they would practice every day, every single night, every single day, and to this day we know all the words to the lyrics of that music. But anyway, that's more later on. But during the time that Tobato was still there, or was it after that, we moved to the greenhouse.
Speaker 4:He left and we moved. He left to Hawaii and we moved to the greenhouse. And. I was about seven years old when that happened. That was right, right. That's where a lot of things changed and a lot of abuse started to happen. A lot of physical and sexual abuse for the girls and some boys too.
Speaker 1:So do you know if that was happening or was that, or were you aware of that after that started happening to you? Was that like just part that? I mean, that's pretty typical of a cult too, where that kind of stuff starts to happen.
Speaker 4:We came to find out later in life that it was happening to other kids because we were with our mom so much we were shielded from it. But things changed when we moved, because then, after we moved, our mama was able to go out to work, the women started to work, children started to go to public school and it wasn't so strict anymore. So we entered public school. I was in fifth grade and she was in fourth grade. Well, that makes sense here, so that's when we started public school.
Speaker 4:I remember that and, yeah, that's when the abuse started. It was then and it was terrible, it was very terrible, and it's like they say it really takes away your innocence and it messes you up. You just think differently and you don't trust anymore. And. I remember growing up I hated men. I didn't like them and I would dress as a tomboy.
Speaker 1:Just to be like less girl looking.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, 100%. I never wore makeup. I was trying to be but ugly. I would always pray. I remember I would always pray when I was walking to school. Lord, please make me ugly so that they won't look at me. I remember praying that even when I was in high school, and I just it was terrible. It was terrible and the threats that I would receive is that you be quiet or I will hurt your siblings.
Speaker 1:Of course they go after the family. I'll hurt your sister.
Speaker 4:Without even knowing that it was already being done, and the men that would do it were so disgusting, and so I mean evil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so sorry. What happened to you guys? Were these just like men that had been around for a long time. That was part of the.
Speaker 4:Some of them, yeah, some of them. Some of them were just, some of them were new and they were just new brought in and they, yes, they did start keep coming, because I remember all the new men like that that would come. They were.
Speaker 1:Do you think? Or there was Purves, Do you think this was like a monetary thing? Do you have any idea? Like I don't know. Like, like, do you know like where the leaders bringing these men or the men hanging out and living there, or were they just like coming and going?
Speaker 4:Some would come and go, but a lot of them would stay to live.
Speaker 1:But Are these just like, like, like homeless people or? No, it's, they're immigrant Just immigrants, a lot of immigrants, and like one would come.
Speaker 4:Let's say like, for example, if a man had a family in Mexico or wherever it was one of them, the man would come over to the states.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 4:He would get connected with the ministry. He would work and everything and the little that they did allow them to keep. They would save for years and years and then bring their family and then he would have connections to other people who also wanted to come and they would bring their friends or people that they knew and connect them again. And so that's how some of them would just come pass by.
Speaker 4:They were there for a few years, or some of them. Most of them had to stay because they have so little that they were able to save after they gave everything to the. Right. And some weren't dumb, I mean, they started to learn how the world worked. It wasn't just staying in this place and they would leave yeah, but they, they still. And then we started going to normal church, to a location, after a while, but still the abuse was still happening.
Speaker 1:And so the church. So they had kind of established a church. Yeah, and they had to go outside or something Outside after, because it kept growing.
Speaker 4:Because it kept growing. It did keep growing and I remember that, because I remember we had to find a place because we wouldn't fit anymore in that downstairs brown house. And they did continue to bring more people because, yeah, because they had even made a shed for us to move which was a little bit bigger, but we outgrew that, so they made that into two rooms. And then I think that's when they found another church, another church that would take us in. It was called Trinity Fellowship and they took us in.
Speaker 1:And that was just. Was that like? Was that just a regular church?
Speaker 4:Kind of Fridays. We'd have a couple, two services, or maybe one.
Speaker 1:No, the church that, the church that brought you in.
Speaker 4:That accepted us in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And basically for for the facility for the area but was that just a regular church? So they had no idea what was happening. So they had this ministry yes Church that needed a location, so they rented their building or whatever and had no clue.
Speaker 4:Yeah, what we had live before. Yeah yeah. They rented us one room, one room, and then, as we continued to grow, they eventually let us use their sanctuary.
Speaker 1:And they were probably just thinking Lord's helping this church, this community of immigrants and stuff and and grow and they had no idea.
Speaker 4:But I truly believe that the Lord uses everything for good. Sure. And and in Trinity we learned a lot and from the Americans and the love that they showed us and we we grew from that and we learned a lot and but we were so stuck living here.
Speaker 1:So you're a part of that. Once you kind of moved into that church, you kind of became a little bit a part of that church.
Speaker 4:A little bit.
Speaker 1:A little bit. I mean it was, it was kind of a separate thing. Yeah, after several years you kind of became a part of that community.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's still very like separate. Like you said if we touched anything it had to be replaced or put back in exactly where it was. Like we would get in trouble sometimes because the kids would break things.
Speaker 1:And was that your ministry cult, saying, you know, don't break anything, don't touch anything? Or was that the church yeah. It sounds more like it was the cult place. Yeah, because they probably didn't want to be kicked out or raise any suspicion or just keep it, you know, contained and as much as possible, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4:They may seem like it was the Americans that were like you can't do this, you can't touch here, you can't. Yeah, mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 1:So so, moving forward, how long did all of that happen? That abuse, physical abuse, all of that, like it, was your mom aware because she's gone out of the house, so she's unaware, she's working, she's unaware, your dad, nothing, they just scared the crap out of you guys enough to watch. They threatened you, said that earlier. Well, we'll, we'll hurt your siblings or your family or whatever.
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, everything came to the light little by little. There's this one incident where my dad came to find out with me, because the man that was attacking me locked all the doors in our room and covered the windows, kicked all my siblings out and my dad had the key to the room.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:And he opened it and he found the man on top of me. Oh. And I got a beating so bad that day. I don't, I don't. We've talked about it with my papa my daddy my puppy sorry, I call him out with lots of things and I've forgiven him already and I know that he probably didn't know what was happening. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And my dad was raised differently. So, you know, as a woman, we we are to respect each other, and so he. I don't know what he was thinking, honestly, but I received a good, a good beating for it and cause he probably thought I was, I don't know you wanted it, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you were probably in your were you preteen?
Speaker 4:I was 11 years old, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the guy had like locked and covered the everything everything and he had just come home from work. So this guy was at the point of being so out of control.
Speaker 4:I was older. I was older Cause. This is when we left. We left when.
Speaker 1:I was 12. So 13 early teens? Yeah, I was.
Speaker 4:You were about 12 because we left about a year after that. Yeah, I'm sorry, I was a little bit older. That's when, when everything came, started coming to the light. Right. Slowly. And then the pastor. Well, the, I would call him the pastor.
Speaker 1:It's. It's so interesting and probably normal that he had gotten so bold, this person, Like there was no awareness or care about time or space or anything. It was just this needs to happen. I'm going to just do this thing and yeah, I bet your dad was just terrified and you know who knows what. How does that?
Speaker 1:manifest and how that looks. I mean, you've obviously talked to him and worked through all of that, but I'm sure it was just a a fear, and I'm wondering if there was yeah, I don't know, I don't want to speculate what was going on and he said that wouldn't be fair to him.
Speaker 4:He was going through. But what really hurt me was that after the incident I was like I felt ashamed. Sure, I'm dirty yeah. And just so disgusting. But on top of that, like the pastor, came with this man to our room, sat down with my parents and me and basically convinced my mother to not go tell the authorities because she would be breaking up a family and and we would be taken away. Right. And the everybody, so just more fear. Oh yeah, everybody.
Speaker 1:And I think it's really fear on his part because he's trying to contain this thing, this is like people are working, bringing in money, there's like Hawaii, there's these homes, and so it's just more fear. I mean, he's afraid that this whole thing's going to blow up because you know, it's not only you being abused, physically, sexually abused, it's a lot of other girls and some boys, and so this thing's going to blow if she goes and it ruins everything. You know it just blows the whole thing.
Speaker 4:They didn't know it was other girls. I don't know how much information they knew about other people getting abused the leaders. Yeah, we don't know. This is all from what we lived through. So, and I don't know if his daughters ever came to share anything with him. I don't know later on in life they did, but his own daughters, the pastors, daughters were abused.
Speaker 1:So you're not sure he was aware of. You don't know, so we don't want to speculate. So it could be that he didn't and it was just these, these men that they were letting come, just were you know birds, and that's the thing like in our culture, especially like the Hispanic culture or Latino culture.
Speaker 4:A lot of the times the blame is always the girl, because the girl instigated me or the girl wanted me to or the girl was flirting with me. So all the blame is placed on us instead of the man, for their actions.
Speaker 1:And that's just like a built in cultural thing.
Speaker 4:I don't know if it's just our culture, but I know it's very, it's very specific to like common very common in our culture?
Speaker 1:Sure, okay.
Speaker 4:And so I mean even when I was going.
Speaker 1:So you must be doing something. Yeah, we must have it, was it?
Speaker 4:was us that wanted it, or that instigated it, or that we convinced their husbands to do it to us, or you know, and even the wife accused me of that the wives were the worst. Yeah, because not only did we have to deal with seeing these men every single day, being around them, knowing the things that they were doing, then the pastor would have us, like, looked at as like prostitutes, basically that we were just bad girls and and we were prostitutes and wanting to you know, do these things with these men, but then the wives themselves would treat us like garbage.
Speaker 4:Call us names. They would call us names. They would pinch us, they would pull our hair, they would hit us, they would starve us, they would make us eat nasty food.
Speaker 1:Because the their leader has convinced them that you guys are the insa, you guys are the instigators, you guys are the prostitutes, and so they're, you're going after their man, and so they're in their mind.
Speaker 4:They're like they don't want to accept the truth of what truly is happening and they're making excuses Instead of seeing the bigger picture of how can a grown man becoming after a little child? I was a child, yeah, we were all children.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in 10, 11, 12, 13.
Speaker 4:That's just when it when that incident happened. Yeah. For us. For me, it started when I was seven years old.
Speaker 1:And so were you getting the same treatment from at that age, from the wives, or?
Speaker 4:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like it's again. I'm kind of just thinking, yeah, it's, it's, almost goes back to that fear, like it has to be the girl, it has to be the person that it happened to. Because there's and this is I don't want to make this, I don't want it to sound like an excuse or whatever. I think it may just be. It is what it is they're so fearful of losing their, their man, their money, their care probably you know what I'm saying Like this person provides for me, this person takes care of me, and if I lose that, I lose everything. So let's project that pain, let's project that onto this girl that's like seven years old. Are you kidding me? I mean-.
Speaker 4:My perspective is as a woman coming from a woman is I've given up my whole life to be with this man. I've promised love and care for him and maybe sometimes they didn't even want to marry this one man. They were forced to and then to have to know that he's doing this, then it has to be. They have to take out their anger somewhere, and it was always to us.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, so it could be a lot of things, right, it could be. They can't leave this person because, again, this is the person that provides, even though it's a shitty life it is. You know, what am I gonna do? Or it could be, I mean, it could just be my man can't do that Like just blind to how men can be, and but it's astounding and disturbing, especially, you know well, any of those ages seven to third, like, are you kidding me?
Speaker 2:Like who's- 17 years old. Mm-hmm, what girl is we're taking?
Speaker 4:two finaly stuff, you know and it's crazy to me, like how they had no like you had said before, they had no respect or awareness of what they were doing when they were doing it. Because I remember two times when we were writing verses, because they would stick us in a room and just give us a Bible and say, write 100, 200 verses. And I remember two different attackers in two different days going after my sister and I would just shy away in the corner and try to not look and not see, but I could hear everything and just ignore it. Yeah. Yeah because what are you gonna?
Speaker 1:do? What are you gonna do? I mean, what can you do? You're a little girl, yeah, and you're just being forced to just be there Like, yeah, that's horrendous, because you just feel so helpless Because there's nothing. You're not big enough, you have no-.
Speaker 4:No voice.
Speaker 1:No voice. You're a little girl, what can you do? And then they just put you in this position.
Speaker 4:But somehow you feel guilty. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Sure, you have such guilt that-. Shame. Yeah, I just remember being so like scared but at the same time guilty, because I and this is something that still eats at me- as an adult is the guilt, the guilt of not speaking up sooner not saying anything Because the threats where we'll do it to these other kids or your siblings and if you don't let me, then I will do worse to this person or that person, people that you were constantly around and who you didn't want that to happen to, so you would allow it.
Speaker 4:And you would get to the point that you would allow it and that you would even put yourself in front so that they wouldn't look at other people. And so when I finally said something, that guilt ate at me.
Speaker 1:So now, as an adult, obviously it still affects you and you said you still, it still eats at you. It sounds like there's two parts, like you understand to some degree that there was nothing you could do. I mean, you're like powerless, you're a little girl. You finally did say something correct, but that's when you could say something, that's when you felt strong enough to feel something. So is it or was it? No?
Speaker 4:Well, I was kind of forced to say something. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. And Anna was the yeah, you were forced. Anna was the one that actually you could say spilled the beans. You know Cause she was forced? Cause she was, it wasn't it? You were caught. No well, in one incident I was caught, but when I finally spoke up and said what was happening, we had just moved from the greenhouse out on our own as a family and we had moved to the Gresham area.
Speaker 4:And that was after my incident. That had happened there were, my dad caught that guy. My mother did everything in her power to get us a home everything in her power. She's like I'm done About a year later that and in between that time I was caught. I was caught.
Speaker 1:So what's the force to say something?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we moved.
Speaker 1:And this was out when you were out.
Speaker 4:When we moved, we moved out of that house which was a relief at first, yeah. We thought we were safe.
Speaker 4:We're like, oh, we don't have to deal with it anymore. We just have to see them at church and then we can go home. Yes, so you're still connected, we're still connected Cause we didn't tell our mother and father the rest of the story. It was just those two incidents. Yes, but we were out and an uncle of mine came to the house and another guy came to the house and abused me in my new home and I couldn't take it anymore.
Speaker 1:I literally like I Was it, so it's family.
Speaker 4:Oh, it's family, it's friends, Friends it's. I mean, I wouldn't consider them friends anymore, but just like friends of the family and strangers, people that we lived with for so many years. We lived there 10 years, right.
Speaker 1:In the new place, no, in the old place.
Speaker 4:We lived there for 10 years in that ministry, and then when we moved, Wow, that's incredible, geez. Like it was like a relief, but even then they would follow, they followed us there. They would come when they knew our parents were at work. I remember being so scared and terrified they had. My mother had put curtains on our big we have a big window at our home and I remember them knocking on the window. I hated it.
Speaker 4:You would try to hide yeah, and at that time I had a I started to. That's another story probably, but I was in love with my husband now and I remember calling him. I was so afraid he still remembers when I called him and I said this is falling, so how old were you at this point? About 14, 15. Wow. Now remember when this stuff happens. You have to grow up so much. Yeah, sure, Our mentality was like Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, right sure.
Speaker 4:Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. So the thing happened that they followed us there to our new home. Yeah, they destroyed whatever piece we had there.
Speaker 1:How long did that take before? That was Not even a year, not even a year. Yeah, so it was enough. Was there like, was there enough time in between where you kind of were starting to feel safe?
Speaker 4:And then it just I think it was like three months.
Speaker 1:It was three months, so you're like, okay, and then they found you because you're still involved in the church, part of it.
Speaker 4:I don't know how they found our address. I mean, we were connected still.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you were connected to the church.
Speaker 4:still, yeah, pretty sure dad shared and they would come for Bible study sometimes to the house. There's pictures of that. In practice, in practice, yeah, because my mom was started. My mom was in the worship team. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And so In what the?
Speaker 4:In that when the church started, In Trinity.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the new church that. So you kind of started going to that church then.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we started congregating there. Yeah, we'd have many services there On Sundays. We'd have Saturdays and Sundays.
Speaker 1:So not a part of the cult borrowing the church?
Speaker 4:No, it is. We were just at a new location. No, it wasn't. Oh, okay, it is the cult, but it's just a new place. It broke up basically. After everything came to the light, people started leaving, finding homes. What once we left. We don't know what happened to the rest. We don't know what happened or where they went, but little by little I think they dispersed once we left. But I don't know what happened. Maybe my mom knows. She knows probably better because it's adults.
Speaker 1:Right. So some of the people just kind of started going to that church.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we all did yeah okay, and then eventually we'd never went to Hawaii. Because, later on, we found out that he he decided to abandon us. Yeah, he just wanted his favorite people and left the rebellious ones, which my mother was very rebellious.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 4:Thank God, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And eventually Manuel Tabora was jailed in Hawaii for sexually abusing girls.
Speaker 1:there too, so that was the guy, that was the leader.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he was the main leader and he was in jail. He destroyed many girls' families, many girls and families there too. Yeah. And all who followed him. It's crazy because the ministry itself, all of the children, all of them, I can't think of any, at least the ones that grew up together with us, yeah, with us Are either dead. They're addicted to drugs, alcohol, depressed, depressed. Very angry, so he's idle angry.
Speaker 1:They want nothing to do with God, Nothing to do with God, so kind of fast forward a little bit. So you're 14, you're in that home. Is there any kind of breakaway at some point? Like completely yes.
Speaker 4:Yes, the Lord is merciful and.
Speaker 1:That was when I finally said something. Okay, so what was that? Yeah, so what was that force thing? We? Were so sorry. Don't apologize, this goes where it goes, it's okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we started with you and not where we were. No, it's fine, I like it.
Speaker 1:No, it's fine.
Speaker 4:So at that time my mom was fostering my cousins and I connected a lot with one of my cousins. And she had a boyfriend that she would go visit, and the day after my uncle had finally like first it was the first guy, and then the day after my uncle had, you know, abused me. I told her. I told her my uncle did this to me and I would cry. And I begged her don't say anything to my mom, please. She doesn't know. And she told me you have to. She tried to tell me that.
Speaker 4:I had to say something and I told her no, no, no, cause then he's going to do it to somebody else. And I would tell her like don't do it, don't do it don't say anything I promise. Don't worry, I'll take care of it. And so the next day I told her I can't stay in this house cause he's coming back today, and he had told me that he was going to be back, and so I was after school. Yeah, we came home from school and I didn't want to be there anymore Cause you know our safe place was no longer safe.
Speaker 4:And she's like okay, well, I'm going to go see my boyfriend, do you want to come with me? And her sister was going to go too, because their boyfriends were brothers. And I'm just like I, at first I was like no, cause you know I don't want to be in trouble. But I couldn't stay in the house anymore. So I told my sister she was upstairs, we were walking out and I'm like we're just going to walk around the corner, we're just going to go and like just go around the block. And I was hesitant. I knew something was up and I was like I'm like okay, but you better be back, cause you know mom wants you home by this time, cause my mom wanted us and I'm like, oh, we're just going to go around the block, don't worry.
Speaker 4:And I said, okay, we got to the corner and we ran. We ran and we got to her boyfriend's house. Her boyfriend's mom was there, which she wasn't supposed to be there. She was supposed to work and she kicked us out. She's like you cannot stay here, especially if your mom doesn't know. So we all left them, their boyfriends and me. I was like the fifth wheel and we went to her friend's house in an apartment nearby and I was just relieved that I wasn't there, for when my uncle was coming, I wanted to be out of the house. So we got there and again the mom was like you cannot stay here, you need to call your mom and tell her that you're here, because I don't want problems. And I called my mom Well, at home, and then let's just go back a little bit At home it 30 minutes past, an hour past, 5, 36, 30.
Speaker 4:My mom's home. Where's Anna? Where's Laura? I don't know. They said they were going to go on a walk. I don't know mom, and she got so scared and she started calling Laura right.
Speaker 3:No Her cousin. I don't know who she was calling. I don't know who she was calling.
Speaker 4:Maybe she wasn't I didn't see that, cause I didn't hear anything. I don't see anything I don't know. She started calling people. All right, is Anna? There Is your cousin there? And nothing. And then, finally, anna called my mother. I called my mom.
Speaker 4:And my mom was so mad and I'm like, hey, mom, I came over here to Lada's friend's house. We're going to do homework, I'll be back home. And she just like Anna, where are you? Where are you? You need to tell me where you are Right now. And I'm like it's okay, mom. Like I was playing it off for the lady who was watching me call my mom oh yeah, mom, we'll be home soon, like. And my mom's literally yelling at me through the phone and be like you better not hang up this phone, kind of thing. And the lady's like I want to talk to your mom. So see, the lady was smart. She was very smart, she did not she did not.
Speaker 4:She wasn't convinced with my act and she talked to my mom and she also played it off. Oh yeah, they're here, they're going to do homework, is it okay if I feed her? And then she went outside and so I'm like oh yeah, so my mom's going to let us stay, you know, kind of thing.
Speaker 4:I was excited and she comes in and she's like okay, your mom says it's fine and she wants you home in an hour, Okay, nothing. So then I'm like Laura, I think we need to leave, Like something's up. I felt like something was up. We tried to leave and she blocked us. Like she stood in front of the door and would not let us leave and I started freaking out. I'm like this lady's going to kidnap us. We don't even know who she is. And Laura's like calm down, anna calm down.
Speaker 4:It's fine. She's going to let us go in an hour and I'm like no like we need to leave now. We need to go and she wouldn't let us go. And the next thing, I know the cops come and my mom comes, and I don't know what my mom said to the cops but they let me go with her and my cousins as well, and we drove all the way home in silence and you know you're in trouble when it's silent and my mom doesn't talk, mm-hmm, and I'm like I'm going to get spanked so bad, like it was just a whole thing.
Speaker 4:So then my mom sends me to my room and tells me that she'll call me when it's my turn to talk, she talks to my cousins, and they were outside in the backyard and they were talking and then my cousin comes down in tears and I'm just like, oh my God, what's going to happen? And she wouldn't tell me anything. She was just in tears and she hugged me and she says I'm so sorry. And she starts packing her things. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4:And I'm just like what's going on, Like I start breaking down and just like what's happening, Don't worry, I'll fix it. I'll tell my mom it was my idea to go with you and, like you know, don't worry. And she just says I'm sorry, and I run upstairs and I'm like mom, you know, don't make them go, it's my fault, you know kind of. And she just said be quiet and go outside. And so they sat me down and they had two chairs in front of me. It was my dad and my mom.
Speaker 4:And they asked me what's going on? Why did you leave? Where did you go, who were you with? And yeah, they were just asking all those questions as a mom should. Right.
Speaker 4:And I just like, I just wanted to go out and have fun. You know, like we were supposed to be back a long time ago, but you know, something happened Like then we went to her friend's house and it's no big deal, you know and they're like no, what is going on? And I said nothing, nothing, you just don't understand. I would say, and every time I would talk with my mom, she would ask me like what's going on? Like why are you acting like this? Because I was a bad child.
Speaker 4:I was the very rebellious child, evil child, oh yes. So I was constantly in trouble and she would always talk with me what's going on? And I would just say oh, you just don't understand, you don't know. And she would ask like so what is going on so I can know, so I can tell me, so I can understand it? I just wouldn't, I would just stay silent and I just started crying. I remember and I'm like OK, fine, I'll tell you. And it just all came out. I just vomited.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm, it just all came out and I just remember seeing the faces of my parents. Yeah.
Speaker 4:The pain it caused. They were shocked. They didn't think nothing like that was happening, the change from a concerned parent to that pain and guilt almost right that you didn't protect your child. And after that I thought I was in so much trouble, but I wasn't. They, my cousins, were taken away the next day back to foster care and I felt a lot of guilt for that, because if I wouldn't have gone with them it would have been OK. But they did it for me, to get me out of the house.
Speaker 4:And so they were taken away. So, then, the person that I connected, the only person I told was leaving, which was my cousin. Because at that time we didn't talk about it, we didn't know, we didn't know about each other what we went through.
Speaker 1:At this point, you just have no idea.
Speaker 4:We didn't have a good relationship. I thought I was protecting her and my siblings. I thought I was protecting them. And.
Speaker 4:I unknowingly I thought she just ran away because she was angry and had a boyfriend somewhere or whatever, but unknowingly I found out that she had opened up a can of worms. Oh man, I mean, then that's when everything came to light, everything. She started naming names I started saying who they were doing it to, and I remember, so this goes back to not just your uncle and the person. This goes back to the church.
Speaker 4:Seven years that it started. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And it started I mean DHS going. My mother was done. She was no longer had no voice. She no longer had to be afraid of the threats, she no longer had to be quieted. Right. That's the word. She was done. She called DHS, got her into the doctor. I've seen all of this.
Speaker 1:And at this point your parents. This is after the 10 years. So now your parent, your mom's like 30-ish, correct Into her late 20s, 30s, so now she's like an adult. Oh yeah. And, like you said, has a voice because she's not under this person's thumb she is the lion mom, I say mama bear that is here to protect 100%.
Speaker 4:I didn't trust that and I didn't open my mouth even once.
Speaker 1:So can you move your mic up just a little bit here and can we get hers a little bit closer, possibly? So at this point she still doesn't know that this had happened to you.
Speaker 4:Well, I when. I did, you spilled, when I spilled the beans, I spilled all the beans, all right. And I told them about the two incidents that I knew that had happened to her at the house. At the greenhouse, yeah, and I named all the names of all the people that I knew that I had physically seen.
Speaker 1:So how so this is all happening over some time or just in that evening?
Speaker 4:that you come home.
Speaker 1:So you're just. And that weekend how, how, what are your parents? How are they taking? I mean, I can only imagine how they're taking this in, but like you got a lot yeah, in you have seven years. Yeah.
Speaker 4:To spill. Right. Literally. Like I said, like my mom went to action, she called the HS, I think like the state. Well what happened was that whole night. We were there till like that I don't even know what time it was Everybody had already gone to sleep and we were still talking, and then, when we finally stopped talking, my mom was just had been in tears for hours.
Speaker 1:So, in the midst of this, you tell her.
Speaker 4:About me, about her, about my sister, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so where are you?
Speaker 4:I'm not out, so you're asleep With my brothers, so it's just, it's the three of you talking. It's the three of us.
Speaker 1:Yes, and then? So did they wait or did they come and get you?
Speaker 4:Or they waited. No, so after we were done talking we had me and my mom were both had both cried our eyes out for hours. Sure, and she sent me to bed. She's like, ok, go to bed. And I'm like that's it, I'm not in trouble.
Speaker 1:So you're still thinking I am in so much trouble.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, because I'm like not only did I run away. But there's all these things that I did before, right, that you think is your fault.
Speaker 1:In the midst of you feeling in trouble was there also some relief that you have all this off your chest now? So it's a mix just of all kinds of feelings for you. Oh yeah, terrified relief.
Speaker 4:Terrified relief Guilt.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you're thinking, and it's a hard question, but you touched on it before. Are you feeling that guilt, like because it took so long to say something? Was that? Did that register for you?
Speaker 4:So guilt that it took so long.
Speaker 1:Guilt that I'm hurting my parents now by saying everything yeah, so you're just feeling a lot of stuff Like way too much for your age, because you're like in your I was about to turn 14. Yeah, so you're just early teens. God, what a load you two have had to carry. But I mean in your parents too, but you carrying, both of you carrying that for so long.
Speaker 4:I carried it a little bit longer, yeah, so after I said it, my mom sent me back to bed.
Speaker 1:Did you sleep at all? I cried all night. No, I cried all night.
Speaker 4:But I was just letting all that emotion out of me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're getting it all out.
Speaker 4:And so the next morning I remember she let me sleep in for the first time Because my mom was always that person that on Saturdays we woke up early to clean the house. So on that Saturday she didn't wake me up and she let me sleep to like 10, 11. And so I got a really good night's sleep after I cried.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just everything. You have nothing left at that point. I was exhausted, just drained. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And then, I'm not sure, like I think we went on Saturday, like the very next day, she took me to CARES, which, if you don't know what CARES is, it's a place that they deal with sexually abused children where they do the exam. So she's just on it, she's on it, she's moving. She's doing police reports. She's got a DHS involved. She's taking me to CARES to get all like swabbed and everything.
Speaker 4:And yeah, and at that place I remember walking in and it looks like a kid's doctor's office, right, just very inviting, warm. I had books, and colors and I was like, oh, where are we now? Like I'm getting treated good today, you know kind of thing. And I remember they separated me and my mom and they're like OK, you're going to go see the doctor now. And that was my first experience with the doctor having to look down there kind of thing.
Speaker 4:And I'm like what is going on? And the doctor was asking me questions about why I was here and I told her you know I've been abused and so she was looking and she was telling me you know you may not fully understand this, but you have a lot of trauma, you have a lot of scar tissue and I don't know if I should say this. She says but I'm just going to let you know and your mom can explain it later. She said she's like you may not be able to have children later on. And I'm thinking, ok, I don't want kids anyways, you know, I don't want to bring you the child that is going to suffer the way that.
Speaker 1:I have yeah, yeah, because that's your world.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I thought your entire world from. I thought everybody lived like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing that I thought about earlier when you guys were talking about you know, years back. It's like when you were talking about you had no awareness of Disney and all this Like it's it's mind boggling. I mean, it makes sense that you don't know or that you know what you're experiencing is that's all you know. Yeah, so your world is. This happens to everybody. Yeah this is the world.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I remember. It's funny that you mentioned Disney, because I remember the first time we watched a Disney movie was in our new house and we were like 13. I was 13, she was 14 and we watched Cinderella for the very first time. Like this is an evil. What are they talking about? It's evil. The evil mom.
Speaker 4:And then our neighbor actually had the whole collection in VHS yeah, the whole and we would go and we would be like kind of like kind of like the blood busser where you would run it out. Oh yeah, literally.
Speaker 1:We were like it's like it's a new world.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we begged her to watch all of her movies. Yes, yeah, and they never understood that like, and we were older girls, like we weren't like little kids, we were old, 14, 15 and in love to the Disney.
Speaker 1:Well, you're really, you're really Still children, like, like mentally there's probably your in your teens, but there's Also, you know, we kind of are, especially when we experience trauma. You're kind of locked in at a certain age, or or you didn't really grow up properly, so you still are kind of in that state. So you're probably 14, 15, 14, but you're probably still, you know, not toddlers, but you know seven, eight, mentally Well in some respect.
Speaker 4:So that's one thing that like in certain aspects. Yes, we were still those seven, eight year old girls but in other aspects, as far as the maturity of sexual things we were way older.
Speaker 1:Yeah, while you mentioned that, where you just had to kind of grow up.
Speaker 4:So it's yeah, it's all so conflicting, so many maturity level for being a caregiver for your other siblings. And protectiveness and building that wall of protectiveness. You know barrier as well. We're probably overprotective, oh yeah, oh yeah, we still are, we still are. Even with our own children. With our own children. Oh yeah, Definitely. But they watch Disney movies, don't worry. Right. Wow.
Speaker 1:So you're at the doctors to get to go back here at the doctors and you know she's explaining all this to you.
Speaker 4:So after my exam which was like half an hour, she really did detailed stuff they took me back into a room where had all these coloring pages and toys. It was more for like little children, but again, kind of like what you said. I was kind of stuck in that seven eight year old age, because I was very excited about it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and we sat down and there was like this kind of like a countertop, kind of like Like an island kind of countertop, and it was attached to a wall that had this mirror and I could only see myself and I came to find out years later that my mom was behind that mirror. Sure yeah.
Speaker 1:It was a two way and yeah, and I didn't even know what that was.
Speaker 4:But in the police officers were there and the in came this lady and again, because I had already spilled the beans with my parents, I felt at liberty to spill the beans with this random strangers. I spilled the beans with the lady who did my exam and now this lady who's coming to ask me certain details I even showed her positions that they put me in, like I was, like I'm free Kind of thing, you know, just open, completely open not even thinking that my mom is behind there and she's hearing everything that I'm saying, because I didn't tell her all of those things, like you're getting into the details.
Speaker 1:Now I'm getting detailed. Yeah, she got kind of.
Speaker 4:Overview. It's not. I was going to say surface, but I don't want to.
Speaker 1:I don't want to.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, she got very surface, she got very surface and now I'm going deeper with the stranger that I have no idea, who I just met, you know, and so we were there for hours. When we got out, my mom I had. I knew that she had been crying because her eyes were puffy and red, but she just had this smile and, like, was treating me very nicely.
Speaker 4:And I'm like this is weird, but I like that my mom is like treating me like I didn't understand it either. Like like this right, and not that my mom wasn't caring or anything, but the way she was raised, was growing up, we didn't really we didn't really care Growing up we didn't really show very much of affection, like we never really hugged or anything.
Speaker 1:Well, whatever her past was, and then Living in this cult for 10 years. I mean, she's hardened. Oh yes, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and so like that's changed now. Yeah. And so like with with her treating me like hugging me and just like kind of having her arm over my shoulder and like hugging me while we're walking out, I was like okay, this is different, but okay, like a kind of thing, yeah, and we go home. She actually stopped by McDonald's and got us McDonald's and an ice cream and I'm like wow.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you both a question? Sure, that popped into my head when you're explaining that. It's like I wonder I guess it's speculation, maybe not a question I wonder if, like, there's this constant thought of trying to protect my kids. But you know, now I'm in this cult, so they're, you know, and we're not living probably the way I want to, speaking as your mom. So it's like this constant thing of like protecting but it's not enough, like it always just seems to be not enough. And do you know anyone I'm saying I don't know where I'm going with that, but it's like she's such a lioness, you know when she knows about it. But and then there's another thing. It's like this I wonder if that's ever like, when is it ever going to be enough? Like I'm trying to protect my kids?
Speaker 1:And there's always another thing that you know.
Speaker 4:I'm saying like we never really thought about what my mom and dad went through. After we did say things.
Speaker 1:I think that's natural for the age. Yeah, I think. But your adults now you do yeah.
Speaker 4:When we became mothers it was completely different. My relationship with my mother was very distant before. I was closer than Adriana was, but it was still very like standoffish with her because I didn't want her to get close and know all these things. And after I became a mother and I, after I had already said everything, she changed in the way of like starting to show affection, more really worrying about how I was making sure that I was okay, because after that the whole fallout from everything was so bad. It was so bad.
Speaker 1:So she went into protection mode doing all the things.
Speaker 4:She's supposed to.
Speaker 1:She was yeah Now that she knows about it, she's taken care of it, yeah, and so you're leaving the hospital and go back home. You're all going to McDonald's, and which? I'm assuming is not something that you've had a lot of, so that's, it's like a treat.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, and then you go home and, and now I go home and and she just lets me, you know, be me and just relax and kind of go to my room.
Speaker 1:Do you feel different? Do you feel like you're still have the hurt, but do you feel I don't want to say like a new person, but do you feel lighter?
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, oh yeah, I felt. I was excited that. I had all these new things coming to me. My mom is like she's gonna help me now I felt relief and, like that weight like you said, it's a tremendous weight for a little girl to just keep and so I had all of that off of me so I felt really light, like really like, oh, yes, I can do whatever.
Speaker 4:I want now like kind of thing and actually like I remember going back and seeing you and the kids watching me come in the door and I'm just like, oh, you know kind of thing, I got McDonald's, kind of bragging thing it's so interesting, I was so mean.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting, it was mean, but it's. Isn't it interesting, though, that before that, like the hurt, trauma, all those things, obviously you're still, you have those things. Yeah. But you have this conversation and now it's like a lot of that is gone Again, kind of lifted it. You know what I'm saying. I guess I'm not asking a question. I guess.
Speaker 4:No, I get what you're saying. I'm just thinking about the difference. The difference, like you're, a whole, not a whole person, but you're a different person. I knew that it was going to stop the moment. I opened my mouth. I knew by seeing my mom. I knew it was going to stop. And so when you grew up in this fear, anxiety, threatened, mistreated world.
Speaker 1:Even if it's low level in the cold, where nothing is happening, it's still like there's this. I don't want to say low level, but there's level of anxiety that's perpetually there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, but now take it up a whole nother notch with the rest of the abuse and the abuse of the women and everything like. It's just layer upon layer upon layer upon layer and you just keep pushing it down, pushing it down pushing it down, pushing it down. And you don't release it at all by crying. We never cried, unless we got spanked, of course, but it wasn't like emotion. Right. It was. We had to keep everything down and in, and maybe my mom will say something different. But that we remember.
Speaker 4:It's very, very strong and we were always seen as angry people. Yeah, bitter and just angry and rebellious was. That was their favorite word is rebellious, disobedient, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, and that's when you were younger. You're talking about when you're younger, even when you're older.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, we were older, we were seen as bad examples to other girls we are still seen that way. We were the most hated by the people that because we still know the people. Yeah, we still see them and are around them. Well, it's like you were constantly.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, that's not just go back to what we just talked about. Like you're in this awful environment I mean in terms of the homes, the cold and that environment with so many people and again it's this low like I don't want to say low level, but the simmering anxiety and fear and, before the abuse, maybe anxiety, because this isn't the way you're supposed to live. You're on this tiny room. So even just in a tiny room there's just like this level of anxiousness.
Speaker 4:Well, now we know that, because I mean, we live differently.
Speaker 1:You're right, back then we didn't. You don't know, you can't define that. Yeah, yeah, so you're just angry.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we didn't. Yeah, exactly, that's where it's growing up.
Speaker 1:Well, and fear, I think, or angry, being angry and being mad a lot of times is fear and that's how it's manifesting, is through anger, yeah, I was constantly acting out. Anyways, yeah.
Speaker 4:For me I had, because my mom had to work. I had to be an example and I had to be kind of a mom, almost like a surrogate mom. I became kind of like I never really accepted her as my mom, though, because we were so close in age. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But as far as my little brother, my other three brothers she was like a mom to them and for me I was just off doing my own things. She was a hater. I would leave her all the responsibilities and try to, you know, do whatever I wanted to do, yeah. And so when we finally got out of that place we were able to kind of start growing up a little bit for just regular life.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, you're also like pinned down, you're controlled, you know like every move is controlled. So now you're in your own place and you're kid. You're teenagers, you got teenager brains. There's part of your brain that's still like an adolescent and you're like out of this thing now.
Speaker 4:So we're free.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And not controlled, and not controlled in that way. I mean, I'm sure your parents are still trying to parent but it's not a controlled like a true controlled environment.
Speaker 4:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:It's like a just a simmering pot that's ready to blow. It blew.
Speaker 4:And so like. So after we got home, I remember that Sunday my parents, we went to church, but we I didn't see my uncle or the other guy at all, because I had only opened up about them too. And not all of them, and there was a meeting, yeah. So after that they had a meeting yeah.
Speaker 1:You hadn't told your parents about the other people at this point. Yeah, yeah Just not even at the no so like.
Speaker 4:So it was so this is seven years of them and two other people. Okay. Yeah, it was just, it was just seven years of all the history of that that had been going on and like who who was, who was involved, like as far as the girls that I had seen, and so that Sunday we went to church I didn't see them. I felt so relieved.
Speaker 4:I don't have to see them at least, because that was just recent. And then, after my parents stayed behind in a meeting with the pastor and the two guys and we were out playing, they made us go play outside and just I came in to peak yeah, you want to say what? What you saw? I don't know anything about that. Oh well, they were in a meeting, basically in a room, with the guys and they were talking from what I could tell they were.
Speaker 4:My mom was pissed and she was telling them what was happening and she's like I already did this and this and this and that's all I saw. And the next thing, now that we're adults, I'm pretty sure this is the next thing that happened. The next thing I knew was that was that they were no longer welcomed in the church and they had to leave the areas that they lived, which was still the ministry, and they both ran to Mexico. And then the pastor came out with my parents and he asked me is everything, all of these things, true? That your parents said and I said, yeah, and your daughters have gone through it too he didn't believe it. He didn't believe it. Oh really.
Speaker 4:He doesn't like us, yeah, he doesn't believe it. He still, I think he still has that mentality that we wanted it or whatever, or doesn't want to accept it. I don't know, I don't know, we don't know. But the thing was like I said, my sister, his daughters and some other girls that have lived there, and so he's like okay, well, I'm going to ask them to make sure you're not lying.
Speaker 1:His daughters.
Speaker 4:Yeah, his daughters and everybody that I mentioned. Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, like, just like ugly pettiness, you know ugly, but he like made an emphasis that I was lying, and so when they asked him, nobody confirmed it. Not even my sister. Nobody confirmed it, nobody.
Speaker 1:So you didn't confirm that you had been.
Speaker 4:I'll tell you why, though.
Speaker 1:Abused, so she told, and you still still did not say nothing.
Speaker 4:So that became another layer of one. It was anger towards my sister, because she's supposed to have my back, she's my family and she's supposed to, you know, say the truth that this happened. Another layer was that I was made out to be a liar, so anything that I said they never believed again.
Speaker 1:So why didn't you say anything?
Speaker 4:Because the men came up to me and said you better not say anything. You're not going to say anything, Right?
Speaker 1:That that had left no others that were still there, that would.
Speaker 4:That would come after us.
Speaker 1:So, after all of this had come out, it spread like wildfire.
Speaker 4:It's a couple of the guys that had abused you said they knew that I had opened my mouth and they were afraid that she was going to open her mouth because there are some of them that did it to her after the men and looking for them and of course they're afraid. And some of the people that did it to her didn't do it to me. So there were different men.
Speaker 4:So it was. It was a lot, and so I was made out to be this liar that made up stories and that did something really bad with my uncle and I broke up my uncle's family and I had him deported and his kids are suffering because of me and this other guy.
Speaker 1:So so yeah, so you have relief for a second, for a little for a fraction for like two days. Yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden, now you have a whole other layer of uh back in. Will you plug that back in? I think, I may have unplugged it, you're fine. So now you have a whole other layer of hurt, like different new hurt.
Speaker 4:Brandy yeah. Girl. I became even more angry and even more bitter bitter, closed off evil rebellious. I just shut my mouth after that and I didn't.
Speaker 1:Why would you say anything?
Speaker 4:I mean well, in reality I shouldn't have, because I know that my mom believed me, even though my dad didn't believe me. My mom believed me and she acted on it, but then it didn't really count at the same time, because she's my mom, but everybody else, all of the adults including my dad no longer believe me.
Speaker 1:So how long did this go on for them?
Speaker 4:So you're just until I was married.
Speaker 1:So what so like five, six years or something.
Speaker 4:Oh, when did you? When were you married? What Nineteen? Nineteen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so another six, five years.
Speaker 4:Well, I was 14. So you were 15. Yeah, so another four years.
Speaker 1:So oh man. Oh, this is like a whole other podcast.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean, we just got through. You know your story. So for those four or five years you're at home. Teenager, you're at home and not saying I'm very suicidal. Now did your mom get you into any therapy, or during that time, or try.
Speaker 4:No, she was told by the pastor that we shouldn't go to therapy. Oh yeah, yeah, it was evil.
Speaker 1:And they don't want to see which pastor at this point.
Speaker 4:It was the. It was the. It was the second leader that was left to. Oh yeah, At the ministry. Yeah, at the ministry he was, he became the pastor, because now we're at a church, so he's a pastor. Yes, yes, sorry.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're fine.
Speaker 4:I just want to make sure I got it all. Yeah, we jump a lot. No, you're fine.
Speaker 1:You guys are fine. I'm just trying to keep up because it's a lot.
Speaker 4:My mom should be here.
Speaker 1:She always no, it's a lot, it's a chronological. Yeah, it's a lot going on. So yeah, it's a lot. So what I'm trying to understand is so that's the pastor that you talk to from the ministry at this church, not the church's pastor.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, they're not involved. They don't even know. They don't know anything, they don't know Nothing.
Speaker 1:So you're talking to the pastor of the ministry that you're just using that building, same building, you're having church in quotes.
Speaker 4:Okay, and this shook our church for a bit.
Speaker 1:How many people were in this church at this point?
Speaker 4:It was pretty full, more than a hundred. Maybe it's still kind of the ministry thing yeah.
Speaker 1:And the people in Hawaii. They've fallen apart. They left us.
Speaker 6:Part no, they were still doing their thing. They were still together. Yeah.
Speaker 4:The Manuel Tabora thing happened what About five, six years ago? Yeah, he got recently. Yeah, yeah, recently that he got caught. With his abuse and all of that. Yeah, that was like five, six years ago.
Speaker 1:So you're suicidal, going through stuff, counseling, no counseling, just Just angry at the world.
Speaker 4:Everybody I hated, everybody Are you still at home. Still at home With your family. Yeah, yeah and very promiscuous, you could say. Because yeah, I mean. Because of the same thing, like I got used to all of that stuff. Now my body craved.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like imprinted yeah, yeah, that makes so it's like it's normal to be that way.
Speaker 4:So, like for me, that was my way of showing my love to whoever I guess your boyfriend. I had so many boyfriends, so many, and I, I would just I'd have to cover Left and right, just like get together. You know, have relations, dump them yeah. Get a new guy Use them for that and then leave it yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you think that's some control to yes?
Speaker 4:Yes, now I know it is, and I didn't understand that. I never understood that. I was like why am I like this? I don't like being like this, like I shouldn't be like this. Because, again, we grew up in a Christian home, so we I knew what I was doing was wrong, but at the same time, it was control that I had.
Speaker 1:It's control that you had you. Yeah, you could pick the person. You could do the thing it's also coping with.
Speaker 4:And it's what I wanted.
Speaker 1:Did you ever turn to drugs, alcohol, or was it yes, yeah?
Speaker 4:I turned to drugs, alcohol, gangs, smoking. Thankfully, the gangs was not Suicidal, like fully. Yeah, it was like trying to. I was a wannabe gang member. I would she never let me. So she was still protecting me in a way, but I was so annoyed that you would do that and she knows that because she she had, like the, I guess, still that motherly care to protect me from things that I would do so.
Speaker 1:Do you think back then? Did I ever register she's protecting? But when it counted she didn't protect me All the time that that you're aware, okay, so you're aware.
Speaker 4:I always held it against her, and I think until I was 28. When you were a mother, no cause. Even then, I was 28 when I finally decided to start my personal relationship with God. Oh yeah, that is angry with God, even, yeah, sure, I mean well of course you would Like why wouldn't you?
Speaker 1:Like these people are telling you he's this thing and which is a complete lie yeah. Yeah, completely opposite of what he is and used his name which has been happened for you know, thousands of years.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:Misused and, and so why wouldn't you? And why would you? Because he allowed right.
Speaker 4:Or little kids go through this. Like this isn't right. Like I want nothing to do, I would go to church. I would do whatever I needed to do with church and just like I don't care. And a lot of hatred towards everybody, even my dad, my siblings, my mom not so much, but I still didn't. I hated that she didn't know sooner.
Speaker 1:Couldn't see the signs. So there was still some blame on her, even though, even though she went into mom mode.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And you see this because after they labeled me as that liar and nobody believed me, she not that she toned down the level, but it was just like we never really talked about it. And then we never also, like I never really saw her support my claims to investigate further.
Speaker 4:It was just cut off and so like um with everything, with the police and everything, they never got the guys you know, and they're still. They still haven't gotten the guys. My uncle ran away. My father's family brought him back. He abused another cousin of mine. She reported it. He ran away again and she said he's done this to my cousins. They called me back to do a testimony to you know, to see like what was my story, and I asked them what happened to my case. We haven't been able to find him and your statues of limitation is so this is like years yeah. I was 26, 13 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 12 years had passed, like 10 years is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and so to this day, I know where he's at. They call you I know. I know where he lit, I know the city that he lives, but because it's in Mexico, they also don't have that jurisdiction like they do here, yeah sure. So yeah, so I don't resent him or I have, I have forgiven them already.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just thinking of that and I wasn't sure if I was wanted to bring it up, if there is some forgiveness there, because, as the saying goes, the forgiveness is for you and not so much for the person actually grown more spiritually in the Lord.
Speaker 4:And we know, we know, we have learned that our, our life and our relationship with God is personal and in order for us to heal completely, we had to forgive and let it go. Because if Nye was just weighing us down, Well, just eat you away.
Speaker 1:And it was eating us yeah.
Speaker 4:Not just us, but in our marriage as well. Yeah, it affected our marriage 100% so much. That's another like huge thing that we went through is is our battle with our marriage during our time Well, and he got married so early too. Exactly yeah, I was 18,. You were 19.
Speaker 1:Your, your husbands are about the same little older. They're cousins, but they're older too. They're older.
Speaker 4:She's, his, her husband's, eight years older minus six, seven years older, which which, now that we think about it and talk about it, we're like what are we? Also bad. I feel bad saying it, but I feel like it has something to do with what we went through.
Speaker 1:Being somebody's? Yes, yeah.
Speaker 4:Instead of the same age. But for in my case, you know, I can definitely say I fell in love with my husband because he protected me when certain things happened in the ministry.
Speaker 1:Well, and you've, and he's. So he's eight years older, so there's some the brain development too that's done for him, because so he's a little bit more mature, probably able to handle a little bit more than if you would have had like a 20 year old. No, I mean, I, I don't know.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he probably can and he is, and as we have been married now 12 years, yeah. They've already a lot more they have.
Speaker 1:So he was still yeah, he was a young guy.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he didn't know what he was getting into.
Speaker 2:Yeah, both of them didn't. He needed a good whooping probably Got it.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't want to speculate, so, so let's fast forward. So you're in all that mess turmoil again, still. So how do we get to you?
Speaker 4:Let me, let me go back a little bit Sure yeah. So so I was. I was in the middle of a where my dad caught me before we moved out.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting. Pause for a second. It's so interesting that the way you phrase that that he caught you, which implies you were doing something, yeah.
Speaker 4:I wasn't.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense?
Speaker 4:Make the record clear?
Speaker 1:Yes, but like he really.
Speaker 4:I think it's the way that we were taught to word things, yeah, which we need to stop wording, probably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause it was really. He caught that person violating your person and your innocence and and his child. So it's just, and you've, I caught it earlier, but you say that and it's so. It's so interesting that way of that way of thinking. Yeah. Cause he didn't catch you. He caught him violating you, I think.
Speaker 4:I say that because of the beating I received. Yeah, yeah. We both received beatings after we were caught. I mean, I got a beating.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. I got a fever.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. We weren't, we didn't go to school the next day. Yeah, I slept standing up after my beating.
Speaker 1:So that makes sense, that verbiage makes sense, because he I mean it's not, it's a lie. Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 4:Yes, well, the beating was true.
Speaker 1:But for you don't want to laugh at that, no, no I know it's that the beating was real. Oh the beating was true. Oh, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4:But it felt real. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Hey, I mean we like to joke. Yeah, yeah, you went through it. Yeah, I mean I, I get it.
Speaker 4:We heal with lots and two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, but so in that situation, you are speaking the truth, yeah, which is a lie. Yeah. Yeah, it bothers me every time you say I'm like, oh, she didn't.
Speaker 4:No, it's good, because we don't catch that.
Speaker 1:Because you lived it. It's your truth, right yeah?
Speaker 4:So having somebody on the outside looking in and being like that's not right. It also helps us to realize kind of what what we have been saying. We frame a little bit. Yeah, and we, like before, we didn't know that it wasn't our fault. We always blamed ourselves, because that's all we would hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No matter, like you saying, it's not your fault. You guys were little. I've heard that so many times, but it's never really until you, until you just said that it's never really sunken.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's you know, as kids. Kids are naturally narcissistic anyways, you know. I mean there's bad narcissism, you know, when you get older. But kids are just naturally. Everything is about them. So if mom and dad gets a divorce, it's my fault. If something bad happens, it's my fault. They're selfish, so that's so. That's just like naturally how our brains work at that age Everything is about us. Yeah. And which is obviously a lie, of course. Yeah.
Speaker 1:If your parents divorce, it's not because of you. But so not only are you being told that it's your fault, but that's just kind of how our brains work. It's about us.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And of course it's my fault that this happened. But that's again a lie, yeah. So rephrase it oh, you can phrase it however you want. It's just just an observation.
Speaker 4:After, after that incident I mean we I was put to shame and once we were still dealing with that, when we were moving into our home with that incident, and I remember so clearly and I've talked to mom about this before too when we were healing I remember so clearly that we had just moved into the home, it was breakfast time and my mom was on the phone with the wife of this man that had abused me and she, she was saying, yeah, I don't understand why she wouldn't scream or why she wouldn't defend herself or you know, like accusing me of it, you know, and, like Anna said, made me feel like a liar and ashamed, and it was my fault.
Speaker 4:You know my mom, my own mom, and that just made me just shut up, like Anna said too. So this is closes you off in your new home, but right after you moved into your new home, right after like yeah, I was brand new after the incident, cause my mom got us out there as soon as she could really fast real quick. It was like well by the grace of God.
Speaker 1:So she was saving you, getting you out of it, but she was also trying to figure out why didn't you scream?
Speaker 4:But I think that it's because of how the pastor dealt with it, you know, and how he convinced her to not tell authorities.
Speaker 1:Well, I think in general, when this is the observation, my part but when a woman gets raped or something like that, people are like, well, I would have fought, or I would have done this, or I would have done that, you know. So there's this ignorance, because they're, they're placing themselves in their right mind in a position where you're not in your right mind. Does that make sense? So they're thinking.
Speaker 4:Logically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because they're safe in the moment, Right, so I'm thinking with some some logic on speaking in my living room or on the phone or whatever. But until you're in that position, you have no clue, you can't project that. I mean some women might, but but it's fight or flight.
Speaker 4:but I think there's an option of shutting down Like it's not just fight.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, we see that I think that's kind of the, I think that's kind of the flight and going through this for years.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. Like so all that plays into it too. Yeah, I think the flight is, it is the shutdown, because you're just I mean, you kind of see it in movies where women like they just kind of turn their head and they kind of zone out and they just let it happen, because and a lot of it probably happened to us too, because we've blocked a lot of it out.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And I think that's one of the first sections of my life I don't remember.
Speaker 1:Well, that's your brain protecting you. I mean, that's just how the brain works.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's a lot of missing years and moments. Yes, but there's flashbacks of what I remember and I don't know, like only God knows if it's. I always say this to my mom like I don't know if it's real or if it happened which I'm pretty sure I did Most likely.
Speaker 2:Because it's like a dream, yeah, and flashbacks are like dreams, you know, but anyway.
Speaker 4:So that was one of the reasons why, when Anna came out to speak, I didn't say nothing at all, because my mom didn't believe me. Then, when my dad saw it, why would he even believe in now? Right. When. And then these men coming towards you to shut you up too. No no, I'm not going to say nothing. And then I saw how they treated her Menos, menos. How are you saying that English? Less. Even less. I'm going to open my mouth.
Speaker 4:And so that was just, and I didn't understand that. Yeah, that's why I didn't even know, because you're not talking about. No, we didn't talk about it. You're just trying to survive, yeah To survive.
Speaker 1:And you're not talking about it because if you would have talked about it, you would have understood it, maybe.
Speaker 4:I think our relationship would be like it is now. We're so close. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But and I did do because of how we grew up, there's consequences to how we, how we live, Like my relationship with my little sister. I grew up taking care of her and unfortunately, because I just wanted to live life when I was a teenager, I would push her away a lot and I would treat other kids better. I guess my mom says I don't remember that. I just remember taking care of her and in our relationship my mom says that we got into a fight. Yeah, so bad. I still don't remember it.
Speaker 4:My cousin says that we've gotten into a physical fight. I don't remember that at all. I God is my witness to this Maybe I have some kind of like Small, like a little spark, but I don't remember that and I just. It makes me feel so bad because now that I'm a an adult that loves God, that wants to do things the correct way, like it breaks my heart to know that you know that I was this kind of person. Well, I think so. After I talked, and then you know, you didn't say anything.
Speaker 4:My mom fostered another sister of the same family. The cousins that had come in moved in. She fostered the older sister. Since she was older, she could come move into my mom's house and during that time my little sister would. I don't even know how old she was.
Speaker 4:I I again, I don't remember anything from my little brother, the littlest brother and the littlest sister. I don't remember them other than them being born and their pictures. When I see their pictures I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that, but I don't remember any of their life until my little sister ran away. I think she was like 12. So 12 years of that I'm missing. So it was just like when we came out. We started when we were finally free and like safe again. Like I said, that's when we really started kind of growing up at that time and we started going through like what a normal teenager would start going through, like school emotions, purity, all of that and so like. For her, even though she still had that like motherly responsibility when my parents weren't there, she also was trying to get out of that Like live her own life and I was trying to say and that led to, like her, not wanting to take care of the kids anymore.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And me running away and eloping with my husband now and yeah.
Speaker 1:So so obviously your abuse finally came.
Speaker 4:The cat caught up, but I took the wrong road. I ran away when I was 18. I was fed up. I wanted to do things my own way, like she said I didn't want to do it. I know my mother Now I know my mother tried everything in her power to protect me and help me to live life Be free and actually be and live and go out, be normal and, yeah, go to school, go to college and do things that normal teenagers do, you know.
Speaker 4:Now I see that, now that I'm like what, 32? Too late, but? And so I didn't see it like that. I just I just I wanted to go out and do it my way.
Speaker 1:I wanted to be free. Well, I mean, what is that? I don't know.
Speaker 4:Nobody telling you what to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's control.
Speaker 4:Probably.
Speaker 1:It's you, can you get? You finally have the say, probably you. You finally have the say. What you do, you have control, whether it's real or not, you can you, you can say but it's control, because I'm out from under my parents. I'm out from under the people that aren't protecting me. I'm out from under this cold. I am doing this because now you have control.
Speaker 4:My way yeah.
Speaker 1:You've never had any, yeah.
Speaker 4:And I broke my parents heart. I broke their heart so bad. There's a picture that to this day breaks my heart and I left.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Was it just uh? Were you all together or something?
Speaker 4:What's the picture? My dad and my mom. They expected more of me. I don't think so. I think I left them down. I think that they really wanted us. Like she said, um to live a normal life and to to have some semblance of normalcy, and we didn't know how to cope with that.
Speaker 1:So none of you. It sounds like including your. Well, I don't know. You can answer. I don't want to speculate, because your mom did do a new, a lot of good things to do when to protect you Once it came out. She you know this and that, but I mean really it's years of therapy to to figure this out, and it was your parents. Were your parents aware of that then? No, that like even like a thought, because there's no normalcy. I mean I'm a huge proponent. I mean God can do whatever he wants. He can heal you and bring you out, but I also know that he gives us doctors and therapists and all those things to kind of help us along. So I'm a huge proponent of therapy and there is no normalcy with your history. That's going to happen. You have to get it straightened out, you have to talk about it and put it in its appropriate place, right, and so, as much as they wanted that for you, it was never going to happen until you did that or do that.
Speaker 4:And she didn't know anything had really happened to me other than what Anna said. Probably yeah, cause she still hadn't remembered, she still hadn't said anything about it at this point. So when I ran away, I took all that with me.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 4:Huge baggage with me. I hadn't talked about it, let go of it and it all came crashing down on my husband and there were days I would wake up the middle of the night hitting him or scared, and it created lots of problems in our marriage.
Speaker 1:Cause he didn't understand it.
Speaker 4:He didn't understand how to cope with that and I knew how to do the basics of a wife. You know cooking clean and not well, but so you're you're you're aware of these things, You're aware. Now I am. Now I am Back. Then I did it.
Speaker 1:You didn't, you didn't understand why you were waking up and no Hitting him or anything like that.
Speaker 4:So you didn't know Awareness or thought, and I well, I didn't know that I had to deal with the problems. I didn't.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that, so there was no connection.
Speaker 4:There's no relationship with mother. Worse, when I left father, I loved my father a lot, but we didn't really have a true connection with my siblings I loved them to death and my parents, my mama.
Speaker 4:basically, she told them she they couldn't talk to me or something like that, and I was like well, when we were at home after she left, she left. She left right after I got married and I was pregnant at the time and all of a sudden she was gone. I left and out and my mom said she ran away. So we're like so what do we do? Do we call the police? She's like nope, she's of age, they won't do anything. She had already tried to call the police and they're like she's an adult, we can't do anything. So when she finally told us, she had already had that answer and so the kids were always asking for her and she didn't know what to tell them either.
Speaker 1:Was there any concern about who she was with?
Speaker 4:My husband. We knew that she was with him, but we knew. We knew she was with him.
Speaker 1:Was there any con-? Because at that age he's considerably older than you. Oh yeah, so was there any-?
Speaker 4:He still doesn't believe her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean at this point, when you're adults, again, it's different. Well, we were planning to be married already when you're 32 and 40, when you're 18 and 26, it's not terrible, but you know what I'm saying? It's still-.
Speaker 4:But we were already. He had already talked to my parents. Asked me out asked for me to be his girl. I mean he did those-.
Speaker 1:So he did the right things.
Speaker 4:But we sort of After that we did the wrong, we left. Well for boyfriend and girlfriend, yes, they did it right. For wife and husband, no Right. And so when she left, my mom was gonna left with the back.
Speaker 1:I just wanna make sure you guys know I'm not trying to imply anything by him. There's just, you know, with the amount that you went through, he is an older boy. So I was just wondering, you know, is there any thought of that? If there's not, there's not.
Speaker 4:No, and that's what's-. So I don't wanna make something out of nothing Cause, like you said, we were not attracted to any of the kids our age. The boys our age were like little boys and, at least for me, like for me, and I had boyfriends from all kinds of ages, but I didn't settle for any of them until I met my husband and he was, he's, six years older, seven years older than me.
Speaker 1:So did you guys end up going to counseling or oh yeah, how did you deal with? Because there's a breaking point, obviously, because now you're talking about what happened to you. So you know, you're beating up your husband in bed and all of that, and it's a rough, it's a rough go, it sounds like. So did you. Just when did you start talking about what happened to you? How did that all? Is that? Something you wanted. Later you can-.
Speaker 4:Oh, what I said. Ooh, it means basically years later.
Speaker 1:Years and years later, oh yeah, so you're like an adult at this point.
Speaker 4:Is that mother? I was suffering with depression. I was suffering-.
Speaker 1:I was not married 18, 19, so-.
Speaker 4:I had my son at 20. And I became even more depressed, I became very-. I think you had postpartum. Yeah, I was just gonna ask if maybe that's what it was Not only did you have your son, but you were still not on talking terms with mom, I wasn't talking to my mother at all.
Speaker 1:And where are you physically? Are you here, in another state?
Speaker 4:No in Portland. Trout Dillon right, trout Dillon right.
Speaker 1:And mom, all of you guys are still in Portland.
Speaker 4:Gresham, Portland, yes. Yes, okay. So after that, my husband, what church were we going to? He was going to a different church. He was actually going to New Heights, our church in New Heights, but it wasn't New Heights. It was different beginning of, like the of us, so our congregation, but the beginning basically in the beginning.
Speaker 1:So where was your relationship with Christ? Cause she did, she went through the motions, but angry, where were you?
Speaker 4:I was still. I was not angry with God, but I didn't understand the true relationship with him.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:And the only reason why I wasn't angry with him was because I came to know him through worship.
Speaker 1:Worship was my so what touched your heart? Yes, yeah, the only thing that got me through. Got it Makes sense, yeah, as a child, even in all that turmoil, that was the connection point for you.
Speaker 4:Yes, I received Christ in my heart when I was nine, and it was through worship. Got it. And I came to love it so much. I still love it now. It's my passion, and I could do it professionally. She's so good at it, I would do it.
Speaker 4:But I remember, like living life, it was just the cycle and it was just this angry cycle as well. I went through the same motions that she did, but with a married life. It was so much worse. I didn't have my honeymoon years that they say when you're first married, and honeymoon years and no. And my poor husband and I like I say poor husband because he went through a lot with me, my baggage, but he didn't know how to deal with it and so he went about it the wrong way and there was a lot of things that happened. There was infidelity, there was that we had to get counseling through our church because I started going to our congregation here which is now New Heights together.
Speaker 4:And before I will say that when I first started coming we were boyfriend and girlfriend still and I wouldn't even leave the car. I would sit in the car and I would roll down the window about a couple inches just to say hi to people, because they would come and say hi to me, Because Sergio wanted them to meet me. I was his girlfriend, and so when I became his wife, we started going there, but not all the time and not consecutively. I'm sorry, what was that word?
Speaker 1:Either way consecutively would be. I mean, it's consistently.
Speaker 4:Sorry.
Speaker 1:But consecutively would also mean you're going consecutive Sundays.
Speaker 4:So it all kind of means the same. I think Jesus said something bad.
Speaker 1:No, you didn't say anything. Bad Okay.
Speaker 4:And so our relationship with God and with our marriage wasn't good. And raising a child on top of that, it was worse and there was a little bit of physical abuse. My husband became very like angry. I remember my pops trying to save me from that. She was there too, sometimes like that almost beat his ass. Yeah, but sorry, you're fine.
Speaker 1:You're fine.
Speaker 4:But I stayed because I made a commitment to my husband and that's something I think I got from my mother. I don't know, and that's just.
Speaker 4:There's lots of details in life that we haven't said, but from what we lived through, my parents went through a lot too With their marriage and a lot of this, I believe, happened really like made a little, pulled them apart a little bit as well, but again, I truly believe the Lord is so, so good and graceful and merciful and they are still together because of the Lord. And I saw that, being the oldest, I saw all of that and so I think I got a lot of that commitment and love and for my marriage from my mom, seeing how loyal and committed and faithful she was to my father, no matter what happened. And so I went through a lot of pain and suffering with my husband for five, seven years and I finally came to realize, as I started to come more into the word and with the Lord teaching me and me taking discipleship and all of that, that I had to heal from my wounds because I would always be so bitter and angry and just.
Speaker 1:So you're aware of this.
Speaker 4:You're aware, I started to become aware.
Speaker 1:I don't know how to deal with it.
Speaker 4:I didn't know how to deal with it?
Speaker 1:And about what age are you kind of figuring out? Why am I so angry?
Speaker 4:Why After my son was about three, three years old, I was about 23. 23. Okay 23. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're just done, You're. You don't know how to do it, but you're just done being angry, done being tired.
Speaker 4:I'm tired.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 4:I not only that, but I developed a lopetia. I developed obesity, more chunky than what I am now. I developed depression, you could say Very depressed, very angry, bitter, everything all of the above. And I, just my son, was suffering. Yeah, he suffered a lot with me, my poor son, and I was. I didn't want to destroy him.
Speaker 1:Was he kind of the catalyst that you got you moving? Yeah, like you knew it, it sounds like you wanted to move in that direction and he was kind of the catalyst that kind of got you there to make a decision. Yes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I made a promise to the Lord that I would serve him, you know, with all my heart and try to raise my children and him only and protect them as best as I could. But the Lord started to show me I had to heal and be saved from this because I was. I was destroying not only myself but my marriage and my and my child, and I didn't want to live like Danny Marty. I didn't want to live in this bitterness and anger and hatred. And I still struggle with sometimes not having finding joy.
Speaker 4:Sometimes I see only the negative and I have to pray daily I was just talking to Anna about it, my sister today about that. I pray daily for God to always put joy and kindness and love in my heart towards my family and my and my children, again for the same reason that we didn't grow up with emotion or love, or when I say love, I mean like that physical, like showing your affection and love and, and so I don't want to be like that. And it's so hard for me, so hard Like hugging my son now. Oh, it feels so weird Sometimes. Sometimes it's like this, this thing in me that feels so like that doesn't want to hug him.
Speaker 4:I just want to push him away for some reason, and I can't do that because I'm hurting him you know, it's just a daily struggle, and so going back when I would worship is when I would feel like I was so close to the Lord.
Speaker 1:That is, if I might Sure, I'm singing on our worship team too, at Grace up the road, oh nice. And I've told a music pastor our music pastor, several years ago, quite a few years ago, like it's a good thing, it's an interesting place, because you feel like it's a sanctuary. Yes, and it sounds like you might get an emotional.
Speaker 1:In his presence and throne. It sounds like you understand that, like you get that, like even like it's a weird spot because, as Christians and this, I want to stay connected to your story, but I'm connecting with you on this level. You know it's this interesting spot because you're on the stage and you're singing to God and helping other people enter into that state. But it's this really weird place because you're on the stage and you have a mic and you're doing the thing and there's a performance piece to it. But the part that I understand and I know you understand that other people may not it's like the sanctuary, it's like this safe place, this safe place. That's the only like it's so To be in his presence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, and you just feel like you know, if you could just stay in that space Like we can. But life's gonna happen, but in that moment you're in it.
Speaker 4:Yes, it's exactly that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you get that.
Speaker 4:It's amazing.
Speaker 1:And when.
Speaker 4:I feel I remember, and then we separated with my husband for you know, for about six months to a year for the same thing, the infidelity and stuff like that, and I was just so he's dealing with some stuff too. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I understand the marriage issues and it can happen when one spouse is kind of not present, but there's probably also some stuff that he's dealing with from his life on top of that. That's making it tough.
Speaker 4:I'm not excusing the behavior, it's just kind of how it all works. It's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:Like I know.
Speaker 1:When you explain it it can kind of sound like an excuse, but it's the circumstances and he's probably has a lifelong a bunch of life baggage too that he's trying to deal with.
Speaker 4:That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:We're not dealing with, and that's how it's manifested.
Speaker 4:And we're both clashing because of this. Oh yes, yeah, oh yeah. So I separated and I started dealing with it. By that's when I started to learn that my life and my relationship with Christ is personal and I cannot change my husband. I cannot change other people. I need to take it myself. That's a great realization. Oh yeah, that's great. Very hard, yeah, very hard, and.
Speaker 1:Because you don't have control on that. I don't, and you have to accept that. That's the control you can't have and it has to be up to them.
Speaker 4:Exactly. Yeah. And then my mom and my sister and my family like they didn't understand why and the reasoning I was staying and fighting for my marriage. Now they do, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 4:But they would see me just in this pain and suffering and crying and just, you know, anger and bitterness as well, wanting to save her. Yeah, but the Lord was molding me and I see it exactly like that. It was painful, it was very painful, but eventually and I hate well, I came to hate my husband so badly, like I couldn't even see his face. I remember giving him our son, Like I didn't care what he had to say, just go Right, right.
Speaker 4:Or I would give him to my brother to give because I didn't want to look at him Right. And I didn't want nothing to do with him. I had decided to come live with my parents, and that's it. So I did, I moved in. I moved in again.
Speaker 1:Which is an interesting state. Yeah. Because of how you left.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so Well, the thing is like when she left, he also isolated her to like against our family, so he wouldn't let us contact her and she probably didn't want to contact us to a certain extent. So they didn't speak and I saw that brokenness for my mom because she was just trying to reach out to save her, like to protect her, and we couldn't do anything and it broke her and so finally, I don't know how it started, but finally I remember the day my mom was on the couch and Adriana called her and she was just in tears, in tears, talking to her, so happy that she finally got to talk to her. And little by little we got invited over and we would spend a few hours with her. And that led up to being able to move in.
Speaker 4:But it was a long time where they didn't talk and baby was coming. I was 20. Grandchild Connected us yeah because our kids are only five, six months apart.
Speaker 1:So your husband's got a story too.
Speaker 4:Oh yes, my poor husband they had a lot to do with. And then after that, the Lord slowly moved my heart. I don't know how, but the Lord did it, and I came to love my husband again.
Speaker 1:I healed and I I'm assuming there's some healing on his part too. Oh yeah, he took discipleship.
Speaker 4:He was a pastor and a lot changed not fully, but a lot changed. There's some things that still we were still dealing with, but then we were able to move on and take the next step as a married couple and as parents for our child. And then he had to leave again for almost a year to get his papers because he was immigrant as well.
Speaker 4:And me being a citizen. I was able to give him his papers green card or whatever it's called and so the punishment for that of him coming across without permission basically is what they call it is he had to go back to Mexico and they sometimes it can be anywhere from a week, three days to 10 years. 10 years, yeah, and by God's grace it was only a year, but we needed it, I think.
Speaker 1:Mm. Yeah, that was probably a blessing. Yes, blessing in disguise.
Speaker 4:But it was also a time for growth for both of them. Yeah. And when we came back, and for him too, I locked, because when he came back he had nothing, he wasn't working, I wasn't working, we had a child. I remember we had just moved down. We didn't even have enough for diapers and food and it was crazy. And he's a very you know how men are, you know.
Speaker 1:We're prideful, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4:They wanna take care of it, he'll say it and he didn't wanna ask for help and he wouldn't let me ask for help at that time, you know Uh-huh. So he wanted to work for his family, which I understand now you know that was many years ago, so you still helped when we came. But I was healing from that my marriage part, but not from the past and so when my son was about five years old, I continued to see that that was holding me back and as I grew in my faith and spiritually, the Lord showed me I needed to heal from that. It was holding me back and I wasn't at my full potential when I would worship and my mom can tell you that too from a big difference. When.
Speaker 4:I would worship back then now big, big difference. And it's like a weight was lifted off after, and the way I came about that was I, and only the Lord knows how he did this. But one night after dinner I came to visit my mom and we started talking about our past and it ended up to a whole session of us healing that night. That was our therapy. It was our therapy, all three of us, and we cried and we talked and I told her everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So a lot of time had gone by. So you were kind of in a state you had reestablished your connection with her and them taking care of you again, you know for a year, it sounds like. And so you're just sat down and just kind of naturally, just kind of let it all go, huh.
Speaker 4:Yep, I had to let it go. It was holding me way down and I wasn't I wasn't fully healed from it.
Speaker 1:How did that look for you two? Oh, it was I mean because you're, because now you're, the setting is somewhat casual. Yes. To a degree.
Speaker 2:Yes, Do you know what I mean? Oh yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:So you're just hanging out at home and you're talking about probably I'm speculating, so correct me. You're talking about the past, maybe in a light-ish way.
Speaker 4:Yes, with a good times, you know, as a family, yeah, so you're just connecting, talking, and you kind of just Well, Anna starts to say the same thing that she said here about how you didn't say anything and you didn't back me up.
Speaker 1:Oh, so you brought it up.
Speaker 4:I was still very angry with her, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're just sitting around talking about all this and you're like so. By the way.
Speaker 4:By the way, you dropped the ball. You didn't back me up and I kind of have an issue with you because of that. Yeah, we just started talking about it.
Speaker 1:Was God, honestly, Yep, yeah because you were in a state where you could accept it.
Speaker 4:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Probably a year earlier.
Speaker 4:Six months earlier, you may not have been able to intake that I probably would have been very bitter and angry and just shut off and told her.
Speaker 1:So you were at a place, finally, where you could accept what she was saying. God's timing. Yeah, for sure, that's like divine intervention, like divine timing. Oh, yes, Because you were finally in a place where you could say I don't want to speculate you what happened we started talking about the past, and then we had issues. And you said I want to pause just for a sec. You said your mom. Well, your mom knew about the one time because your dad saw it. Yes, but it happened.
Speaker 4:Well, she knew of two times, Because when I spilled the beans, I spilled when I saw it, and then also because I was there that day that incident happened.
Speaker 1:You're right.
Speaker 4:And I was trying so desperately to get in the room because I knew what was going on.
Speaker 1:But you had just kind of like Blocked it off. That time.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so go ahead.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and then we were talking and we had a lot of issues. I hated her. We would always fight and my mom was like trying to bring us together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of rough, kind of like you need to heal.
Speaker 4:It's not good that you guys are like this, like you guys are sisters, you need to love each other. And I'm like, well, you know, I don't have any love for her, I don't care about her, like you know. I just and like when we were discussing why that was a big reason, why I think it was the biggest reason why Was because she didn't have my back and that's when I told her reason.
Speaker 4:And then my mom was like in shock. My mom went through the whole thing with me, with her, and then yep, and then she's like wait, wait, what?
Speaker 1:And oh, that's why I'm, that's why I wanted to set the scene, because this is just talking about good times. And then you kind of get into a little deeper and you're like I don't like you because, and now you're just Huh.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Your mother. My poor mom, yes, Like cause I'm sure this was not Like you're kind of reconnecting. It wasn't even her radar, yeah, cause you're like reconnecting and kind of doing some light healing and all of this, and then this is a bomb that's just dropped.
Speaker 4:And we were all trying to defend ourselves, to why even my mom she was trying to defend I'm like, and you? You didn't believe me. I told her, I told her everything. She let it all go, we let it all out. I let it all out, just like Anna did with. She says fill in the beans. I let it all out. I told her about every single man that touched me. I told her every single detail of how I remembered.
Speaker 1:And this is so many years later.
Speaker 4:So many years later. Yeah, hers was a lot longer time. Mine was seven years, hers was. Hers was seven years of that abuse, but also all the resentment, hurt and elopement and baby and everything after. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4:Yeah it was a lot more. Yeah, yes, after that I felt free, I felt we all cried yeah. And we like prayed. We prayed with each other and little by little during that time, we started to teach my mother how to hug again, how to love again I think I don't really like to say love, because my mom has always loved us how to show her love. Yeah. Yeah, show her affection.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Because we never grew up hugging each other or kissing my mom Never and so like when we first started it was, and it's so important, the most thing ever it was so awkward.
Speaker 1:We need to talk to McKayla and Sierra. Yeah, they love each other like best friends, but they will not hug. It's a little weird, because they hug us kinda.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Not even our dad. We've never really hugged anybody, and so yeah it was. And my mom told us the reasoning, yeah. It was her dad saw it as some kind of perverted thing, and so, yeah, that's why for her it was like yeah. You know, but we taught her. So interesting, it's so interesting, and now we all do it and we're teaching our grandma now. Yes, my mom's mom.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting what kinda and how far back it can go that.
Speaker 3:I don't wanna say weird way of thinking I don't, yeah, I don't want it to.
Speaker 1:I don't wanna.
Speaker 4:Generational cycles yeah Versus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, you know, because it's so important that we have that. It's vital. I mean, they've done studies on it, you know. You know, like orphans in Russia or wherever, where they're just they just sit in a. Or even now to the point where you know they have babies laid on their mother and father's chest. For that, because it's so important, it's down, it's such a science where it's Like the reasoning why you put your child on one side, because it's like the left right brain connection, like it goes to that, like it's so organic and so necessary. And when people don't get it and it kind of they're not right, and I don't wanna say that in a and it's the brain. Yeah, I don't wanna say that in a disrespectful way, but you know what I'm saying. Like you have to have it.
Speaker 4:We understand that it's so vital. It's.
Speaker 1:It's so vital. It's so vital to our wellbeing. And the sucky thing is when you don't have it and then you experience it the way you did, in such an awful, terrible way and that's kind of like your first experience with it or your first experience with it. It's horrendous.
Speaker 4:Well, it's the two extremes right yeah. You get none of it or you get really bad of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and it kind of explains why you were, because that imprint we talked about it earlier why you were kind of promiscuous and stuff like that. You're just searching for that and it's wrong, because that's what you experienced. I don't know what I'm connecting things that I'm not sure is right?
Speaker 4:No, I know what you're trying to say.
Speaker 1:Like you're getting this negative and so now that's what you're latched on to. You're not getting positive, and it's, I'm just kind of talking about this.
Speaker 4:We don't know what positive love or positive like good kind of love and show of affection looks like.
Speaker 1:What you experienced was horrendous, yeah, but it's what you're searching for with boyfriends, because that was your connection point.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that was the way I felt, what I was searching for in my husband, but I had to learn he couldn't give it to me. Yeah, and he got good. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:He was the responsible, the one that was responsible for your happiness and all of that, and he couldn't yeah, he couldn't give you that Nope, and he was doing the opposite or was doing the opposite.
Speaker 4:So it really kind of not the only did it break me and I was angry. Yeah.
Speaker 4:He didn't do his part and he didn't. He didn't come to be that man that expected him to be and live up to it Exactly. He didn't live up to what I expected and had in my mind. Such a dream, or you know the night in shining armor. Yeah, and I had to learn like re re retrain my brain, as they say you know. But God did that, yeah. God did that and I know that for sure, and there's a lot that still needs to be worked in me a lot.
Speaker 4:And there's. But from from what we lived in the past, like talking about our testimony, I used to shake so bad when I would talk. We couldn't talk about it, yeah.
Speaker 4:And now I just feel peace and I feel that the Lord has just taken control of it. And it's not who. It doesn't define who. I am as a person and I know that what we lived through the Lord is using it and has used it to help others, just like what my mother has lived through has helped so many people. I mean it's, it's just amazing what she has lived through, and I always say that to her and I was telling her like you need to write a book, mom, because it's crazy, but the way that you have just lived through these things and still like.
Speaker 4:What amuses me the most is the faith that she has in God, and if anything I take from her is that yeah, that.
Speaker 4:I want to be that until I'm old. I want to be like my mother how strong her faith is, how how faithful she is to the Lord and to her family and to her husband. You know, my mom's such a strong woman and she's one of the persons that I know for a fact that God put into our lives and I didn't see it before to really help us heal and move forward as woman.
Speaker 4:And I I'm so thankful for my parents now and the life that they live now is just amazing. Their relationship as a married couple with her and my father it's crazy, it's funny and and just it can get crazy. It can get crazy, but I mean she's just amazing. But their love is just awesome. Yeah, and.
Speaker 4:I love it, I love it and I just, I just want to take care of them now, you know for me now as an adult, I want to take care of them and give them everything that they deserve, you know, because they didn't have it growing up and now, like when we take her out, like she knows, like we don't let her pay for anything she never pays, she tries, or we don't let her like.
Speaker 4:Whatever she wants she can have, you know, like, and my mom's not the type of woman that asks for things, so cause she grew up having nothing. She's used to that you know, but with the little bit that we have, you know, we like to share with her and she also never accepted things, but we've taught her to, to accept it.
Speaker 4:She struggles with it but she's learning. But I'm thankful that the Lord has put them in our lives to grow as woman of God, godly woman, and to this day they continue to be that example, and I love right now. My my favorite thing now is watching them with our kids and seeing how they react with them, Cause it's very different. The way the Lord changed them. Because my mom had to heal. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And and and. Since she has become better in the word and and taking classes and the comes, they said uh, um the classes that she took. She did um seminary school with my dad. Yes, they became kind of like marriage counselor. Yeah, they became so different Pastors, kind of like a new creature, as they say.
Speaker 4:You are a new creature in Christ. They learned a lot and they became so much better, so much better as a, as a person, as a mother, father, grand parent, everything. It helped them be able to heal the things that they felt that they had done wrong with us as well.
Speaker 4:Because during that time that they were in that school I remember very clearly my dad asked me for forgiveness and for me and my dad we never had that close relationship because again one he didn't believe me and then, when it was my uncle, he just like basically blamed it on me. He, he was part of the reason why my uncle came back and like yeah, just so.
Speaker 4:So much. So I had so much resentment towards him and I wouldn't even call him my dad, I would call him by his name and I just I didn't. Yeah, I didn't have a relationship with him, but when he asked me for forgiveness it like blew me away. And it started.
Speaker 1:Was that the start of the new journey? Were you.
Speaker 4:Yes, I think that is something that started my, my healing because, again I it didn't start till I was 28. So during that whole time I was just very angry and bitter.
Speaker 4:Now, like slowly, I think, Anna has another part of her story with her marriage too. Yeah, so like the whole journey was just very angry and bitter and, slowly but surely, like my mom and me got closer as I had my daughter, me and her got closer as we started talking and with our kids, and then finally, my dad is what kind of triggered me from starting to heal, because he asked me for forgiveness. I said okay, dad, whatever.
Speaker 4:But he told me exactly like that with the rolling of the eyeballs. Yeah, I have lots of practice. And he told me because I didn't believe him, I just accepted it because I wanted him to stop talking to me. Basically and I was like okay, dad, whatever, and he's like you need to ask God to take your pain away. And that sentence broke my heart and it, just like that sentence, touched me to the point that I'm like I need to heal from this now I need.
Speaker 4:I can't be like, like, like she said. I had that epiphany that I cannot continue with this anger and resentment is just eating me alive. Yeah, and it's funny because I had actually tried to hang myself the day before.
Speaker 1:Really, we were just talking about a couple of years ago. Right, you said you were 32. So you're 31. You said this started happening when you're 28.
Speaker 4:This is just like recent For her.
Speaker 1:So the day before you tried to hang yourself and then the next day he asked, and that started your journey to healing man that's heavy and fantastic.
Speaker 4:And the Lord is like Adriana says he's so merciful and he knows the things that he allows in our lives, for whatever reason, and we don't see it until later as we look back but every single suicidal attempt has failed. It doesn't matter how many bottles of pills I swallowed, it doesn't matter how many times I held my breath to the point where I passed out trying to kill myself, how many times I tried to hang myself walking into traffic. Wow. Yeah, just trying to end it all. Right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and the pain is. You just like this, you don't like physical pain.
Speaker 4:You hear of all these people that kill themselves and you're like why you know like, and the outside you're living and smiling and you're showing this fake person, but in the inside you're in so much pain and to just have a release, just to just to not be able to think about it, not be able to feel it Like alcohol and he does so much Drugs only do so much. You still have to deal with it when you come down from the hat.
Speaker 4:And it's so intense and so like having to actually give it to the Lord and just like hand it over, even though you just, at the same time, just want to hang on to it because you don't want to deal with it and you just have to go through that process, which is an extra level of pain. But it's just, it's a healing kind of pain, and so I was very like we're locked down, like, okay, lord, here you go, but wait, I don't want to start it yet. But here you go and like so, little by little I started handing things over and little by little I started healing and you guys saw a difference in me and my, the way that I acted, the way that I treated you guys.
Speaker 4:I think, and part of that, healing is not only telling our parents what we went through, but being open with our spouses about what we lived, because they also grew up in this culture of where they kind of think the same way.
Speaker 4:And unfortunately they don't understand, but the Lord has. I always say this like only by God's grace my husband understands what I have lived and believes it and knows what I say is true, what I've lived, and he supports me and he protects my children the way I expect him to protect my children, Because before that, he didn't understand and didn't, he hasn't lived it.
Speaker 6:He didn't live that life, so he didn't understand that kind of situation.
Speaker 4:Well, for me it was a little bit different, because I tried to push my husband away by telling him my story. You did it on purpose. I did it on purpose.
Speaker 4:Because again I was that promiscuous girl that I get a boyfriend, I do what I want with him and then I'm done and onto the next and so, like with him, we started talking, okay, and I was like I'm liking this guy, and then he asked me to be his girlfriend and I told him, well, yeah, but like it's funny because at first I hated him. He and her husband, like we said, their cousins, and they would play together in the worship team with my mom and they would always sit together and talk in their native language, which is Maya and Indian, and so they would always make comments about how fat we were and how ugly we were, and so I hated him.
Speaker 4:And then also, another level is I play piano and so does he, but I'm classically trained and he's by ear and so I would practice all my classical music and everything and he would make fun of me. Like you don't know how to play, stop playing, get out of here, kind of thing, so I hated him and I would always go complaining to my mom, like he's so mean, I hate him.
Speaker 4:And my mom was like Anna, be quiet, the Lord's going to humble you if you don't stop, like. I'm like no, mom, don't even tell me that, like never does. That's not even going to happen and I don't even know how it happened. But somehow we both started like liking each other and then that's when we started talking. A few months later he asked me to be his girlfriend and I'm like okay, I'll be your girlfriend, but I have to tell you something.
Speaker 1:And so, to push him away, I told him with the intent to push him away, not to let him know. This is what you're getting into.
Speaker 4:No, it was. It was the intention was get out of my life. Yeah, Because I also have that.
Speaker 1:I still have it, but the Lord had you tried in other ways To get rid of him, like you did with the other boys, and it wasn't working. And so you so you just went in hard the first time.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because the thing is with the other boys. It was all about sex, Right? And so you just would do the thing, and then, yeah, they weren't in point, they weren't important to me, but with him it started as a friendship. Right. And it was weird because, like again, we hated each other but then slowly started becoming friends and started talking. And so in my mind I know I'm not worthy to be his wife. In my mind I know that I'm not a virgin, so I can't give him what he wants. Or.
Speaker 4:I don't deserve it. I don't deserve it. In my mind I'm not a full woman because I can't have kids. So I told him there's something that I have to tell you If you want a wife that's going to give you kids, you need to look somewhere else. If you want somebody who's a virgin, you need to look somewhere else. If you want somebody who is pure and has had a normal life and doesn't have baggage from abuse, you need to look somewhere else, and I spilled the beans again to him. And not in detail. It's kind of like an overview.
Speaker 4:And he didn't talk to me for two days and I started crying and I'm like Anna, what did you do, Like, why would you do this? Why do you always sabotage yourself?
Speaker 1:And that's the two minds that we talked about early on, where you're fighting these two thoughts. You know there's, like, these healthy thoughts and then there's these sabotaging thoughts, like you said, and it's our brains just in battle.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the battle of the mind. Yeah, that's where he attacks the most. And so with him. He called me two days later and he said I don't care, I don't care if I ever have kids or not, I don't care about your past and I don't care that you're not a virgin. I want you and I want to be with you. And I started crying Okay, I'll be your girlfriend. And it was a. It was a very healthy relationship until like a year after, because with him, I decided I'm not going to have sex very fast and I'm going to wait, and I had never done that, so I knew with him it was different. And so somehow we started having sex after a year of being girlfriend and boyfriend, and two years later I got pregnant with my daughter. Wow.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I wasn't using birth control or anything. According to me, I'm like I can't have kids, so what's?
Speaker 1:the point. So that conversation with that doctor years back I said you may not be able to have kids. Yeah, I'm not sure I should be telling you this, but you may not. So you never were. That was never confirmed, you just took that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and she was a doctor.
Speaker 1:And that was your story.
Speaker 4:And that was, and with all of my boyfriends.
Speaker 1:I never used protection.
Speaker 4:I never got pregnant, which would obviously and with all of those men Right, by God's grace, I know that's only the hand of God. But yeah, and it took us two years, but I got pregnant and I remember the day because I was having such bad migraines, but then also my menstrual cycles were crazy very crazy.
Speaker 4:And so I went to a doctor and they told me well, maybe you should get on birth control to like even things out. I'm like, okay. She's like is there any way that you could be pregnant? No, well, have you had sex? I'm protected. Yes, so there's a possibility. I'm like, no, they told me I can't have kids. And she's like who told you that? And I told her well, I was abused. And they told me I have too much scar tissue and I can't have kids. And she's like we still need to check. And so they did the PE exam and everything. And she comes in, she's like she sits down and she's like well, you're pregnant.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can't even imagine. And I'll like the lead up to that the story and the lead up that you told yourself. Yeah. And that you've never gotten pregnant, like which would have given me confirmation that that person was you know that you couldn't for years.
Speaker 4:I've been two years already too, I mean.
Speaker 1:I don't even know. I mean, how did you even absorb that? Was it like a? I laughed in her face.
Speaker 4:And I'm like you're crazy, you need to go do that test again because you messed me up with somebody else. Right.
Speaker 4:Because there was multiple people there in the exams getting birth control. So she went. She's like I don't think so, but we can do it again just to make sure. Like, yeah, I'll pee again if you want. I think you guys messed it mixed it up. And she's like, okay, I'll be right back. She goes, she does another test, she comes back and she's like you're still pregnant. I was like I was in shock then.
Speaker 4:At first I didn't believe it I was just like no, you messed up. And then I was in shock and I was like there's no way. And she she's like you told me that. They told you you couldn't have kids right. How long ago was that? And I told her I was 13, almost 14. And she says the body is amazing and it can heal itself. And I said but I've had sex unprotected and I've never gone pregnant and with so many people and she's like it only takes one time.
Speaker 4:and I'm like, no, there's no way. And she's like Anna, you are pregnant. And she started talking about abortion and what.
Speaker 4:I wanted to do. And she's like is this a plan? Are you okay with your partner, kind of thing. And I'm like I'm not even thinking about my partner, I'm thinking about my mom and dad. They're gonna kill me, and my mom always kind of joked around with us that if we ever got pregnant we'd be kicked out of the house. And so I start bawling my eyes out and I go to see my husband who's in the waiting room, my boyfriend at the time and I sit on his lap and like, bawling my eyes out and I'm like I'm pregnant.
Speaker 4:You need to take me to live with you because my parents are going to kick me out and I don't know what to do. I don't know if we should have this baby. Should we have this baby? What do you want to do? Like I was a mile a minute just vomiting at him and he's just like sitting there and, if you know her husband, like he's not, he's very calm and I can't even imagine what he was, just staring at me and shock. And so they finally we finally left the clinic and he drives me to the cleaners that my dad had and my mom and my sister were there and I didn't want to go in. Like I didn't want to face my mom because they printed out a little letter that said I was pregnant, that I need to go get like services at the doctor and everything.
Speaker 4:And I told him in the car. I'm like, okay, I'm going to go in there, I'm going to tell them they're going to kick me out and you're planning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm planning. You're all prepped.
Speaker 4:I'm like you're going to take me home with you, right? And he's like, yeah, I'll take you, I'll take care of you, don't worry, it'll be okay. It took me half an hour to go into the cleaner. I was shaking so bad I I couldn't. So I was in the cleaners with my mom Um and I was we were watching a movie or something like that waiting for customers. My mom was all has always been the person to clean. Oh, he's, she was cleaning. Oops, I'm sorry. You're fine.
Speaker 4:Um, and she, she, anna, comes in and yeah, she was shaking. It's a little sweaty and nervous. I could tell with a little letter in my hand.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and she gave walking so slow. She I don't know what at the time was in Cal. You know what Cal is. It's like a the center for advanced learning. It's like where you go to learn to be a dentist or a medical assistant. So she again. She's always been super smart in school, and so I'm thinking that this letter is like I got into nursing school or I'm going to college somewhere far away.
Speaker 4:That's what I'm thinking, cause I had just graduated high school, uh-huh yeah. And so my mom also probably thought the same thing. She didn't expect it. And so she reads it and she's like no, no, I gave the letter to my sister, did you? Yes? I gave the letter to my sister, cause I couldn't give it to my mom.
Speaker 4:Oh that's right. And I'm like is this real? I gave it to her and I'm like here, just give it to mom. She's like what? I'm like, just give it to mom, what is it? And she opens it and it's like jaw drop and hands it to my mom and she looks at me like oh, you're a jumble, Is this real? And I was like, reading it, All my mom could do was grab a brew and start sweeping. That's all she could do. Didn't say one word. No, she read it, looked at me, read it again. Did you grab it? I gave it back to my sister and grabbed a brew and started cleaning.
Speaker 4:And she was cleaning aggressively. So you know, my mom is mad. And then she's like, she's like Anna, she starts cleaning again and stops. So what are you going to do? What are your plans, emma? And then starts cleaning again. Emma is her husband, emmanuel Emma, and he's just like he was super quiet. He's already quiet, but this was quiet on another level. Who's going to tell your dad you? Need to tell your dad.
Speaker 4:Like, no, I can't, I can't tell my dad. And then my dad walks in and she goes somewhere which is my dad's name. Come see what your daughter brought me. She grabs some water, Hands it to my dad. Now, my dad, for me, has always been the discipliner. He's always been the one to hit me. I don't think, spank me, discipline me. I don't remember my mom disciplining me as much but, she says she did.
Speaker 4:Yes so that was something that I, I guess, blocked out, but it was always my dad that I remember, so I hid behind my husband Because my dad was reading this letter. I was watching my novella Literally playing out in front of her and I grabbed my husband and literally hid behind him, and I'm like having him in front of me as my shield. That's my dad.
Speaker 4:And my dad looks at me and he goes are you serious? And looks at the letter again no, no way. And I'm like we better run, yeah. And he goes yes, I'm going to be a good boy. And he goes yes, I'm going to be a grandpa. Yes, so unexpected. And I'm like what is going on? My dad, yeah, it was great. And my mom was like are you serious? I'm like that.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting when we have them as parents, like they have these rules because they've had what? Five kids and then we're like you're not going to have another kid, because every parent knows that that young they're taking care of that kid most likely, and they already had five. I mean we've had this conversation with our girls, like we had family rules, but it was also us understood. Ok, but if this happens we'll figure it out. So they didn't like we really want you to not do this thing, because this will be a whole level of responsibility that I don't. We would tell them we want two kids. We had two of you for a reason we do not want to take care of. But if something happens because we are we were kids once too we're human.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're all human, we'll figure it out. So there was like this level of fear, but also we didn't want to. What happened to you, like if you make a mistake or or if you just stuff happens, stuff happens and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but in our culture it's so funny that your parents were so strict about it. And in the moment when it happens, when it the thing actually happens, it's a completely like something and a reaction that they probably didn't even know that they would have, like your dad was ecstatic because he's going to be a grandpa.
Speaker 4:Yes, well, that's what he portrayed, at least. I don't know how he actually, let's go with it. Yeah, no, but in our culture it's also very taboo to talk about pregnancy, sex, birth control. We don't talk about it. Are we? We don't talk about it so like, as that's why we were only told if you get pregnant, you're getting kicked out.
Speaker 1:but that was the extent of our sex talk Right oh that was it no that's rough.
Speaker 4:There was nothing else, so there wasn't like we learned from school, yeah, but also like birth control wasn't even talked about, so we didn't really know.
Speaker 1:That was that even thing, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:So I mean, and then there's a thing that I thought I couldn't have kids. So I'm like Right Right, right, right Right. So it's just different circumstances, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The cultural part is so interesting because, like, married to my wife and I have two girls like there's no, not talking about periods or, as they call them, party favors, you know, and you know cramps and all those things. It's just for me, it's just that I have three women living in the house. They're all going to experience these things. You know what I'm saying. Like, like I would go and I don't say this to, but you know, when my, my wife and I first married, I would go buy the they would. It would be another part of the groceries that I would buy what she needed. It was never a thing. So it's just interesting, I guess, and I think it's probably not necessarily sometimes culture too, but it's the cultural things are so interesting Sometimes. You know what?
Speaker 1:we talk about what we don't talk about.
Speaker 4:Yeah, they're not really taught about it either. Yeah yeah, my husband wouldn't even touch a tampon box at all for years. Yeah, I had to. And now I can send them the picture of what I want and buy a friend yeah, right, right, yeah, but I mean that's like years.
Speaker 1:He's kind of yeah, he's kind of they're both trained well.
Speaker 4:Thankfully now.
Speaker 1:All right, well, we're at. Yeah, you don't even want to know.
Speaker 4:Is that five plus hours? No, it's that breath Like three. We're at three and a half, oh my gosh. Yeah, so you can do a part one part two yeah, so great story.
Speaker 1:Had a lot of fun with you too. What I like to do as we sum this part up is what is one thing, one message, one thing that you want to leave with the people that are listening?
Speaker 4:For me, I would. The number one thing is to always trust in God. That's my number one thing is no matter what we have been through, it doesn't matter how big or how small or the, how shameful it might be or how guilty you might feel. I mean, you can always, always run to the father and he will receive you with open arms. We just have to let go of the baggage and let God heal us. That's something I wish I would have learned sooner. And to seek help. Seek help if you really do need it and you need to speak about it. It's just as the Bible says. You know, when we have a problem, we need to speak, and so it's the same thing, I think, to heal, we need to speak about it so that we can let it go. We can't fester in it, can't keep it hidden and swallowed up. Yeah, that would be my thing, that I would say.
Speaker 1:Hannah.
Speaker 4:How do you follow that up? I would say the same thing. However, for me, I think I would say, for, like all the young girls or even boys that are going through any sort of abuse or difficulty, don't blame yourself, don't don't feel that, that you can feel the guilt and the shame, but in it's not your fault and it's also maybe will help you heal if you actually say something. And I know that a lot of people try not to talk about it and try not to say anything for fear of the stigma that it puts on you and and the shame and what people are going to say about you, which is why a lot of people don't say anything.
Speaker 4:But for me, I know now that the Lord is using our stories to reach those girls and boys that are hurting and just know that, like Adriana said, is you go straight to the one who can, the only one that can heal you, and he's the only one that can take that pain and turn it into something beautiful and something and something that will heal others. And so I'm just thankful that the Lord never gave up on us, never left us, always has been faithful to us and has put people in our paths to support us and, yes, it took a lot of time, but he never, never wavered from that, and so that's why we're here today, you know, that's why we're still alive, that's why we have our testimonies, and it will be a little bit painful to go through all of that and heal, but he's always there. He'll hold your hand through it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, I appreciate it. Thank you. Hopefully we'll talk soon, yeah. Yes. Thanks for listening to because I want to know. Please follow the podcast on Instagram and Facebook at because I want to know. Also, please rate it five stars on the Apple podcast app. It really helps out. Thanks again and keep wanting to know.